Guy Blackmon
Roundtable Host 2009
Hahaha!!!! Got You Big Fella!!!!! But Seriously Everybody Else......Let It Go!!!
Powdered Bleach Review Roof Cleaning Products
- Thread starter Doug Rucker
- Start date
Hahaha!!!! Got You Big Fella!!!!! But Seriously Everybody Else......Let It Go!!!
Apple Roof Cleaning
Roof Cleaning Instructor
Russ, in retrospect, several mistakes were made by both AC and Delux.
For the life of me, I do not understand WHY AC did not utilize all the RCIA Roof Cleaners to test this product first ? As smart a man as AC is, he is just one person. All of us Russ, is smarter then one of us.
It is my understanding that Delux was pretty darn competitive with this this stuff vs what you can get it for from wal mart. Plus, it was labeled correctly.
The Wal Mart stuff is not ground as fine, and will be tougher to dissolve. As you know Russ, the finer the grind, the better the water solubility. Poor Water Solubility is not that big a deal in swimming pool chlorination, and gives a 'time release' effect. But for us roof cleaners, it is essential. Perhaps with an additive, we can make it more water soluble ?
I just posted this at RCIA.
Here is another expired US Patent that basically teaches adding some Phosphoric Acid to the calcium hypochlorite when it is made. It also teaches that adding some Acid to the rinse water will prevent the scale. Now, here is what I THINK can be done if someone wanted to use the calcium hypochlorite bleach powder. It APPEARS all we need is a rinse water solution that is mildly Acidic. Now, this sounds terrible, "using Acid on a roof", right ? Wrong! The mild acid/water solution will merely act to neutralize the calcium hypochlorite, as it prevents scale formation! The now neutralized solution you just rinsed off the roof should be safer for plants, and better for the environment!
I could make the following case "Mr and Mrs Customer, our company is different, we use a revolutionary powdered roof cleaning product from Texas, and we not only rinse your roof, but we also NEUTRALIZE the once toxic runoff, to prevent it from changing your soil PH".
OK, we gave AC some "tough love", now why don't we all see if we can make this stuff work ? Imagine one day Homeland Security says no more SH sales, then what ?
Or DOT starts acting up ? Guys, it would be nice to have something to fall back on ?
Ac took the lead with this product, Delux geared up to sell it. Perhaps it just needs a bit more Research and Development ? From looking at expired US Patents, it appears the scale problem CAN be solved, so all we are left needing perhaps is a potency booster so it cleans quicker and better .
There is a US Patent addressing the poor water solubility problem Russ !
This Patent says Momma can dump some calcium hypo bleach tablets in her washing machine that will dissolve!
Then this Russ
PPG Industries produces high quality
calcium hypochlorite. Two forms are
available. One is a dry, free-flowing
granular material readily soluble in
water, and the other is a slow-release
tablet. Both contain a minimum of 68%
available chlorine.
Zappit™ calcium hypochlorite granules
and slow-release Pittabs® ¾-inch
calcium hypochlorite tablets find a
wide application in chlorinating swimming
pools.
Super Zappit™ calcium hypochlorite
granules are specifically designed for
swimming pool shock or superchlorination
treatment and contain a minimum
73% available chlorine.
Induclor® calcium hypochlorite
granules and ¾-inch tablets are
designed for industrial and municipal
treatment.
All products are EPA-registered.
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814jeffw
Active member
Hey Chris,..I don't really think being finer ground will help the calcium dissolve,..it is unsouble in water,..there is always gonna be powder left behind. If it's ground finer, it will just be finer powder left behind.
Not only that but,..why do we wnat to dissovle the Calcium,..I'd rather strain it than have more of it dispersed all over the roof,.. it would just be more calcium to deal with on the property.
We can't compare this at all to swimming pool water,..in pools there is so much water compared to CH that the undissolved Calcium disappears, and eventually gets vac up or sucked into the filter,..so trying to add a pound of this stuff to 5 gallons of water is way different than a swimming pool with 100's and typically 1000's gallon of water.
The first thing that needs to be realized by the "experimenters" is: CH will never be the same as using SH,...Understanding this will allow for CH to maybe be a possibility sometime soon. I think alot of guys thought it was just gonna be the same,..except in powder form,..even if we can get the desired results,.it will be down a different path with more turns as compared to SH.
Jeff
Not only that but,..why do we wnat to dissovle the Calcium,..I'd rather strain it than have more of it dispersed all over the roof,.. it would just be more calcium to deal with on the property.
We can't compare this at all to swimming pool water,..in pools there is so much water compared to CH that the undissolved Calcium disappears, and eventually gets vac up or sucked into the filter,..so trying to add a pound of this stuff to 5 gallons of water is way different than a swimming pool with 100's and typically 1000's gallon of water.
The first thing that needs to be realized by the "experimenters" is: CH will never be the same as using SH,...Understanding this will allow for CH to maybe be a possibility sometime soon. I think alot of guys thought it was just gonna be the same,..except in powder form,..even if we can get the desired results,.it will be down a different path with more turns as compared to SH.
Jeff
Apple Roof Cleaning
Roof Cleaning Instructor
In my past searches for an alternative to SHC, I was told by several chemists that SH is the Gold Standard, and nothing will ever clean like it will. Cal Hypo does present problems compared to SHC, maybe we can overcome or minimize them ? First, the water solubility issue, then the residue issue, then the cleaning power issue. Imagine there is NO more SHC ever to be sold for cleaning use again ? LOL, I know what u are going to say, go get some store bleach, and apply our secret booster .....
Apple Roof Cleaning
Roof Cleaning Instructor
Water Softening may help Jeff ? Calcium Hypo is way more soluble in SOFT Water. There are a number of ways to accomplish water softening, as you know. LIME is one of them, and I think the lime MAY also counteract the film! It is also important, as you know Jeff, to allow the calcium hypochlorite TIME to release it's Chlorine in the water. I can never see this product as being a mix and go clean right away product. I see it as a soften your water first by the addition of some Lime, check the PH, then add the calcium hypo. Stir real good, let sit a few minutes, and stir again. I think if you allow 1/2 to 1 hour, the chlorine will have time to release itself.
As for the film, it MAY go away once the water solubility problem is solved, or it may not ? It will surely be greatly reduced.
The amount of the Lime added to the mix water will need to be determined experimentally. I THINK we may need an excess of Lime, over and above what it takes to merely soften the water Jeff. This is because when we hit the water will all that calcium hypo, it may want to return to it's previous hardness ? The Film we are seeing could merely be the undissolved Calcium Hypochlorite passing through the pump. Remember, garbage in, garbage out ? Improving the water solubility will not hurt, but we must see what effect the Lime will have on the equillibrium reaction Jeff. It is NOT the Chlorine that does the cleaning, it is the release of the Hypochlorite ION that only occurs in water. Perhaps Lime will enhance that reaction, we don't know until we try it. In THEORY Jeff, Lime WILL increase the potency of the bleach powder in 2 ways.
#1 - by increasing water solubility
#2 - By raising the PH - The conditions for the formation of the Hypochlorite Ion that does the actual cleaning are much more favorable at HIGH PH's.
The "riddle" of the bleach powder may have just been solved by simple water softening, LOL
I sure hope so Jeff. Our friends at Deluxe must have a LOT of this product we don't want them to EAT. And besides, Calcium Hypochlorite does not 'taste good'.
I am not sure of the water solubility of Lime, but in theory, anything that raises PH will soften water, so if Lime is not water soluble enough, a more water soluble, inexpensive water softener should work.
Apple Roof Cleaning
Roof Cleaning Instructor
The more people we can get to try and make this stuff work Scott, the better. Neither Delux or AC ever came on the RCIA Board to my knowledge with an apology to OUR members, despite offering this product for sale at RCIA. Jeff and I are attempting to help make this product work better. We don't know if Delux and AC even read the RCIA Board anymore. Improved water solubility of the bleach powder we feel will go a long way towards making this stuff work better. Ac's solution was to get a finer grind of this powder, a good idea BTW. This takes it one step further Scott.
Actually the people who bought the product were not only apologized to but they got their money refunded. Why would they owe anyone who did not buy it an apology? If anything, knowing how Delux handles issues, especially this one, you and the RCIA owe Delux an apology for allowing your members to run them through the mud and call them evil.
Im not saying you shouldnt discuss it. Just looks suspicious that you're doing it in this thread and one both boards.
Apple Roof Cleaning
Roof Cleaning Instructor
Scott, please stop Trolling. Our members were upset, including myself, and rightfully so. We were led to believe a product offered for sale at RCIA had been tested, and it obviously had not. Neither AC nor Delux ever came on our board to my knowledge and addressed our members concerns, despite the RCIA board being the primary sales vehicle for this product. Let me tell you about a concept Scott. It is called a contractors right to expect a product to work as advertised, and vent when it doesn't. RCIA will protect NO Vendor. There is always hell to pay for any vendor that sells something that does not live up to it's claims.
Regardless, what's past is past. Jeff and I are trying to see if we can make this stuff work, or not. Care to join us ?
Apple Roof Cleaning
Roof Cleaning Instructor
I just found this
Calcium hypochlorite is available as white powder or tablets, therefore it should first be dissolved in water, and only then it is injected into the treated water. Calcium hypochlorite isn't highly soluble, so it dissolves better in soft or medium-hard water. It is recommended to dissolve it in warm water, in order to improve its solubility.
In any case, all forms of calcium hypochlorite contain insoluble residues that form sediments in the solution. It is important to eliminate the sediment before injecting the calcium hypochlorite solution into the treated water tank to avoid clogging.
Advantages - Easy transport and storage, more stable than sodium hypochlorite, does not add sodium to the water,highly effective when correctly used.
Disadvantages - low solubility, might cause clogging, the final chlorine concentration in water is dependent on the extent of dissolution achieved.
Calcium hypochlorite is available as white powder or tablets, therefore it should first be dissolved in water, and only then it is injected into the treated water. Calcium hypochlorite isn't highly soluble, so it dissolves better in soft or medium-hard water. It is recommended to dissolve it in warm water, in order to improve its solubility.
In any case, all forms of calcium hypochlorite contain insoluble residues that form sediments in the solution. It is important to eliminate the sediment before injecting the calcium hypochlorite solution into the treated water tank to avoid clogging.
Advantages - Easy transport and storage, more stable than sodium hypochlorite, does not add sodium to the water,highly effective when correctly used.
Disadvantages - low solubility, might cause clogging, the final chlorine concentration in water is dependent on the extent of dissolution achieved.
AC Lockyer
New member
Why in the heck would I go back on your board after attacking me, not my product, not a critique, not a review but over and over personal attacks! Now you and Jeff are the new "Hope is found in bleach powder" poster boys?????? WOW
Counting to 10............ok Im better.
AC
Apple Roof Cleaning
Roof Cleaning Instructor
Scott, we average well over 800 different URL's a day passing through the RCIA Forum. The Bleach Powder was advertised for months on the RCIA Forum. Is it unreasonable to expect that some of our visitors/posters may have bought some ?
Apple Roof Cleaning
Roof Cleaning Instructor
I am taking the high road here.
Jeff and I are exploring ways to possibly make this product work better, things you could have done that you obviously overlooked, or just didn't know about. Some warm water softened by Baking Soda will allow better water solubility, as will waiting for an hour to allow all the chlorine to be completely released into the water. We think a mild acid/water rinse may help prevent the scale.
You had a whole forum full of some of the best roof cleaning experts in the country that would have helped you field test/develop your product, yet you decided to go it alone for reasons known only to you. You are now reaping the rewards of that mistake in judgment.
Maybe the Calcium Hypochlorite research Jeff and I are doing will be successful, maybe not ? Wish us luck AC, because if we are successful, it will certainly not hurt sales of your product!
814jeffw
Active member
AC,..don't flatter yourself or your product,.I have done ALOT of roofs with CH,..I have been interested in CH since I've used it successfully years ago,.. I bet I've done more roofs than you did with CH,..At best I think you only experimented,.I was out on the job with this stuff working it,..I didn't have an SH supplier. But since I I've since found SH,..I mostly got away from CH,..most recently mixed some up about 2 yeas ago.
BUT,..your debacle with your revolutionary pool shock has spurred my interest in CH again. But don't make out like I'm trying to take the reigns,..I had the reigns a long time ago,..and your product offers me nothing that would move it ahead of what I and others were posting years ago.
I know this,..I knew enough not to ever recommend CH to well meaning people,..which is what AC did.
Chris and I are doing nothing but what we've done in the past,..we've discussed CH many times over the last few years,..this has simply got us interested again.
My recent interest is also spurred by knowing alot more about the overall process than I did back then,..I think CH would be a more feasible product for me as it is,..simply because, as I said,.. it's easy for me these days,..and could maybe handle the CH issues a little better now.
P.S.--For those not interested in this thread,..simply stop reading it.
Jeff
Apple Roof Cleaning
Roof Cleaning Instructor
Jeff, as IF you and me have never discussed calcium hypochlorite for roof cleaning before ? And I can even remember me and Russ Spence talking about it. In fact, nearly every non pressure chemical roof cleaner has been curious about it, at one time or another.
Chris Francis
Member
Ok water softer sound good on paper but the it is going to push up roof cleaners cost. One thing water softer are going to cost 2000 - 5000 and larger tanks so they do not waste time money running to get more soft water. Sorry to say this it is going to cost to much to make CH work when you can get dot lic and pull in any pool shop get SH for a lot cheaper.
AC Lockyer
New member
Apple Roof Cleaning
Roof Cleaning Instructor
To make soft water Chris, all one need do is add some baking soda, mix, and wait a few minutes. Presto, soft water!
We will have to experiment as to the best ratio of soda/warm water to bleach powder to use, we may even need some Borax to buffer the reaction ? Remember, not everyone lives in Florida like we do, and has SH on every corner!