He is from ohio, Ok will see what happens. I looked at the ip on the PWNA site. none, they dont have them public.
How about the outsourcing of the education program?
- Thread starter Ron Musgraves
- Start date
Squirtgun
New member
What if you are the only honest man in the room?
If they are bidding they understand that a lot of travel will be required.
If you aren't bidding then the concerns that have been expressed in this thread wouldn't apply to you.
This doesn't mean that BOD bidder wouldn't/couldn't apply peer pressure prior to the vote to sway a decision in their favor.
Last edited:
Mathew Johnson
New member
Beth & Rod said:
Beth Great literature and I like the quote it was fun to read. Just out of curiosity... You are on the WRAPI Exec BOard... Who is all of the Stock registered to?
Clean County PW
Active member
Squirtgun said:
The first remark above is hypothetical garbage.
The second is an accusation assumption. We will pick the ones who we feel are whats best for the Org. and not whats best for the company that submitted the bid.
As for that link that Beth sent, her and I debated that today. I think that where in zero violation of it. If somebody wants to break that link down here I'll explain why it doesn't pertain to what could possibly happen with these bids.
Break that link down and put it out here as to what the main point of it is.
Squirtgun
New member
Hence the "What if?"
Anything a non member has to say is garbage to you and the majority of the BOD.
WHY?
We haven't shelled out money to have one in their eyes.
If a customer doesn't do business with your cleaning company to do talk to them the way you talk to non members? I seriously doubt it because at some point you hope they will hire you and line your pockets with money.
P.S.If you quote me,have it read the way it was typed not the way you want people to read it.
I edited the other post just a little to reflect possibilty.I didn't say it was infact the case.
Anything a non member has to say is garbage to you and the majority of the BOD.
WHY?
We haven't shelled out money to have one in their eyes.
If a customer doesn't do business with your cleaning company to do talk to them the way you talk to non members? I seriously doubt it because at some point you hope they will hire you and line your pockets with money.
P.S.If you quote me,have it read the way it was typed not the way you want people to read it.
I edited the other post just a little to reflect possibilty.I didn't say it was infact the case.
Squirtgun
New member
Also,remember PWNA members brought this situation to light. While you may not appreciate or respect Mike's,mine or other non-members opinions,we are equally allowed to share them in this forum on this thread according to the disclaimer.
Ron,
Thank you for still offering non-members a place to take part in PWNA topics with out being censored or chastised.
Ron,
Thank you for still offering non-members a place to take part in PWNA topics with out being censored or chastised.
WRAPI
Ambassador
As much as we appreciate your interest in WRAPI, this is not the proper forum for questions relating to this organization. We are happy to directly respond to any question you may have either by phone or by means of the WRAPI forum on this BBS and we encourage you to do so!
Thank you,
Thank you,
StainlessDeal
New member
A Few Points Concerning Blah Blah Blah
We don't know each other, and you haven't taken the oppurtunity to identify yourself definitively here, but I think it takes unbelievable gall to post something like the sentence above in a thread where current and prospective members of the organization under discussion are raising legitimate questions ANY director of ANY organization should realize are a matter of course.
I'm sure it is painful to hear and read people doubting the motives of directors you have come to know as good, hard-working people you trust. You've served together on this board for a while, and you wouldn't have some rube from Nebraska casting aspersions upon them.
I feel for all of you, but the relationship described above, despite all your protests to the contrary, is exactly why people have a right to expect a little more circumspection on the part of the board. Collusion is not necessary to this problem, more dangerous is just the chance that a member voting on the bids, might give some tiny, even unconscious, advantage to the friend that has stepped out during the discussion.
The specific duties of board members are to guide the organization they are in stewardship of, and answer (and take into account) the views of the people that pay the dues. When a board member repeatedly claims that everybody on the board is honest, we believe it (perhaps) but we can only be SURE they will behave honestly if the board members (and everybody else) knows that they CAN NOT unduly benefit from decisions that the board makes: That is, they are ineligible to participate in bids let by the organization.
This is not, "Blah blah blah," this is common, garden variety ethical behavior.
I have no reason to suspect any particular board member is in any way corrupt, I just have to say that the question can't be seriously raised if the members cleave to the commonly accepted rules. I will iterate here, unequivocally, that I am not saying there is a corrupt member or members on the board. I am saying that people that have not even met the members of the board can't know for certain and shouldn't be expected to rely on anyone's word for this.
This is why county board members that own construction companies, for example, are not allowed to bid on county construction projects in the county in which they are board members. If something like this went on in your county, I imagine you would cry foul, and you wouldn't want to be told that you were just complaining with your blah blah blah.
You'd be offended.
You'd even be offended if you heard this from Board members of a county in which you were contemplating purchasing a new home. Just because you don't live there yet, doesn't mean you don't have a right (indeed, an obligation) to cry foul. You would have a legitimate stake in this because you hope to one day make your home there. This might persuade you to look elsewhere for your new home.
If the PWNA board doesn't listen to members now, why should any prospective member choose to join? Should businessmen look for an organization that seems to say, "Join now, we want to make a difference, your opinion and good ethics are not required,"?
I have not posted here to discredit the PWNA, in fact I have been leaning toward joining, I posted here originally because I was so surprised by this situation that I was sure the Board members couldn't be aware how this looks to the public. I actually am trying to help.
Two more quick points from earlier in this thread: First, a question to JohnT, a man I esteem as a police officer and a contributor here and elsewhere. If a person is found murdered, but nobody complains, or even if only a few people close to the situation complain, is the murderer any less guilty? No, and we all know it. The number of complainants has little bearing at all on whether or not ANY action is moral or ethical.
Next, I'd like to address the issue of a director having to abstain from bidding, and thereby depriving the good members of the organization of the oppurtunity to take the best possible class.
Saint Paul of Tarsus said it best, "We shall not do this evil that good may come." In the 2000 or so years since, no more apt words have been uttered.
I would submit that any board member so talented that their class is the obvious choice could easily leave the board, bid, and win in good conscience. That is, as long as board members have not yet seen even a single other competitor's bid. Once any board members have seen them, the opportunity exists for unfair advantage to accrue to the director who otherwise would have bid. He or she might have been made privy to another's work, and would be hard pressed not to take that knowlege into account when placing the bid. This is the heart of the conflict of interest. To wit: The "conflict" exists between the director's "interest" as a business owner, and his or her "interest" as a director of an organization expressly dedicated to the good of the industy as a whole. Stepping out of the room during deliberations hardly begins to address this conflict.
These points really should be self-evident to any person that would claim to have the best interests of any orgnization in mind. It should be obvious also, that this situation hands ammunition to the critics of this organization, and credence to all but the wildest claims of the most rabid anti-organization people out there. The board is probaly sincere in its desire to do the best it can, but good arguments now exist that this may not be so.
I AM NOT impugning any person or people here, I'm stating the truth: People have been given (probably unnecessarily) a reason to doubt the motives of the board. In a nutshell, it looks bad, and shouldn't.
No matter how many members, for whatever good reasons, come here claiming that the board is an honest group; no person has a reason to believe that in this instance. This will be true for as long as the board countenances a clear conflict of interest in this bidding process. Directors should not be eligible.
MarkH said:
We don't know each other, and you haven't taken the oppurtunity to identify yourself definitively here, but I think it takes unbelievable gall to post something like the sentence above in a thread where current and prospective members of the organization under discussion are raising legitimate questions ANY director of ANY organization should realize are a matter of course.
I'm sure it is painful to hear and read people doubting the motives of directors you have come to know as good, hard-working people you trust. You've served together on this board for a while, and you wouldn't have some rube from Nebraska casting aspersions upon them.
I feel for all of you, but the relationship described above, despite all your protests to the contrary, is exactly why people have a right to expect a little more circumspection on the part of the board. Collusion is not necessary to this problem, more dangerous is just the chance that a member voting on the bids, might give some tiny, even unconscious, advantage to the friend that has stepped out during the discussion.
The specific duties of board members are to guide the organization they are in stewardship of, and answer (and take into account) the views of the people that pay the dues. When a board member repeatedly claims that everybody on the board is honest, we believe it (perhaps) but we can only be SURE they will behave honestly if the board members (and everybody else) knows that they CAN NOT unduly benefit from decisions that the board makes: That is, they are ineligible to participate in bids let by the organization.
This is not, "Blah blah blah," this is common, garden variety ethical behavior.
I have no reason to suspect any particular board member is in any way corrupt, I just have to say that the question can't be seriously raised if the members cleave to the commonly accepted rules. I will iterate here, unequivocally, that I am not saying there is a corrupt member or members on the board. I am saying that people that have not even met the members of the board can't know for certain and shouldn't be expected to rely on anyone's word for this.
This is why county board members that own construction companies, for example, are not allowed to bid on county construction projects in the county in which they are board members. If something like this went on in your county, I imagine you would cry foul, and you wouldn't want to be told that you were just complaining with your blah blah blah.
You'd be offended.
You'd even be offended if you heard this from Board members of a county in which you were contemplating purchasing a new home. Just because you don't live there yet, doesn't mean you don't have a right (indeed, an obligation) to cry foul. You would have a legitimate stake in this because you hope to one day make your home there. This might persuade you to look elsewhere for your new home.
If the PWNA board doesn't listen to members now, why should any prospective member choose to join? Should businessmen look for an organization that seems to say, "Join now, we want to make a difference, your opinion and good ethics are not required,"?
I have not posted here to discredit the PWNA, in fact I have been leaning toward joining, I posted here originally because I was so surprised by this situation that I was sure the Board members couldn't be aware how this looks to the public. I actually am trying to help.
Two more quick points from earlier in this thread: First, a question to JohnT, a man I esteem as a police officer and a contributor here and elsewhere. If a person is found murdered, but nobody complains, or even if only a few people close to the situation complain, is the murderer any less guilty? No, and we all know it. The number of complainants has little bearing at all on whether or not ANY action is moral or ethical.
Next, I'd like to address the issue of a director having to abstain from bidding, and thereby depriving the good members of the organization of the oppurtunity to take the best possible class.
Saint Paul of Tarsus said it best, "We shall not do this evil that good may come." In the 2000 or so years since, no more apt words have been uttered.
I would submit that any board member so talented that their class is the obvious choice could easily leave the board, bid, and win in good conscience. That is, as long as board members have not yet seen even a single other competitor's bid. Once any board members have seen them, the opportunity exists for unfair advantage to accrue to the director who otherwise would have bid. He or she might have been made privy to another's work, and would be hard pressed not to take that knowlege into account when placing the bid. This is the heart of the conflict of interest. To wit: The "conflict" exists between the director's "interest" as a business owner, and his or her "interest" as a director of an organization expressly dedicated to the good of the industy as a whole. Stepping out of the room during deliberations hardly begins to address this conflict.
These points really should be self-evident to any person that would claim to have the best interests of any orgnization in mind. It should be obvious also, that this situation hands ammunition to the critics of this organization, and credence to all but the wildest claims of the most rabid anti-organization people out there. The board is probaly sincere in its desire to do the best it can, but good arguments now exist that this may not be so.
I AM NOT impugning any person or people here, I'm stating the truth: People have been given (probably unnecessarily) a reason to doubt the motives of the board. In a nutshell, it looks bad, and shouldn't.
No matter how many members, for whatever good reasons, come here claiming that the board is an honest group; no person has a reason to believe that in this instance. This will be true for as long as the board countenances a clear conflict of interest in this bidding process. Directors should not be eligible.
Jeff Robison
New member
I do not get into the politics and such of the organization ( I am a PWNA member) but I think the bids for classes are a good thing in general. I have taken one of the certification classes and was a little disappointed in the overall presentation. I think competitive bids will "raise the bar" for all involved. More information, better presentation, more real world applications. I did not recieve anything about these bids being sent out, but have no interest in teaching a class either. I think the creme has risen to the top in the PWNA organization. These people give many hours of service to the organization and probably would teach the best classes anyway!!!! I have no problem if they profit from their years of service to the organization by teaching classes to further educate members and non members. I find the politics a little funny, but I bet 90% of the members if polled would really have an issue with what has happened.
Jeff Robison
Titan Exterior
678-360-2518
Jeff Robison
Titan Exterior
678-360-2518
Sorry Ron for not signing my name, yes, I am Mark Hatten, PWNA Secretary and Certification Chairman. Sorry I have not gotten back in the last page of posts. I do have other committments outside of bbs's and PWNA. I apologize and didnt mean to cause the uproar in two or so posts as to who I am.
I can say that the bids have came straight into the PWNA office and either cc'd or faxed straight to me. I have several bids that the office has not even seen. I am just a power wash guy that is trying to help others succeed.
As far as me bidding from what one post had said, No, that is the LAST thing that I want to do. And the ones bidding are aware that they will be traveling but only for the classes they had bid on. If one person was to teach all of the courses that we want to offer, and give them at all of the times we are wanting them taught, convention, several boot camps, roundtables, and hopefully a couple other times, that one person would be on the road constantly and all other aspects of their business would fall to the way side. And there again, it is better to have professionals in their field rather than a jack of all trade, master of none. To date, the instructors of the wood and kitchen exhaust have donated all of their time, travel expense, shipping costs of items that are used in class out of their own pockets. Which I do want to commend them for what they have given of themselves to anyone wanting to take the course members and non members. We just felt that it was time that the instructors have at least their expenses paid for from these classes and in the long run maybe make some profit, they are the ones being taken away from their families and businesses. I may be doing all wrong and I was ticked off by all the posts of how this would not be handled honestly, and I would be swayed by other board members. I have calmed down and I am just wanting to let everyone know that this is still happening even though it has brought up so much debate. I want to Thank Jeff Robison for having an open mind to the positive side of this. I do agree that it will raise the bar for all and, if we see where we dont like what is being taught, we can either ask them to correct it or we can put out for another bid. When we sent the bids out on January 4 2006, we used anyone that was in our database at the headquarters starting with members first and reaching to non members second. If you want to be on the list for future bidding information to be sent, email to me at Dennysdynakleen@aol.com and I will be sure that it gets to our database. I realize there are many things happening in PWNA but this is the main area I am focusing on at this point. I took this position as chairman from another BOD that resigned due to family health issues and just trying to pick up where he left off and go from there. One post had said if I was not bidding then it would not apply to me. I agree whole heartedly, That is the reason I am on this committee,, it does not apply to me other than handling the bidding process and not bidding.
Mark Hatten
PWNA Secretary
I can say that the bids have came straight into the PWNA office and either cc'd or faxed straight to me. I have several bids that the office has not even seen. I am just a power wash guy that is trying to help others succeed.
As far as me bidding from what one post had said, No, that is the LAST thing that I want to do. And the ones bidding are aware that they will be traveling but only for the classes they had bid on. If one person was to teach all of the courses that we want to offer, and give them at all of the times we are wanting them taught, convention, several boot camps, roundtables, and hopefully a couple other times, that one person would be on the road constantly and all other aspects of their business would fall to the way side. And there again, it is better to have professionals in their field rather than a jack of all trade, master of none. To date, the instructors of the wood and kitchen exhaust have donated all of their time, travel expense, shipping costs of items that are used in class out of their own pockets. Which I do want to commend them for what they have given of themselves to anyone wanting to take the course members and non members. We just felt that it was time that the instructors have at least their expenses paid for from these classes and in the long run maybe make some profit, they are the ones being taken away from their families and businesses. I may be doing all wrong and I was ticked off by all the posts of how this would not be handled honestly, and I would be swayed by other board members. I have calmed down and I am just wanting to let everyone know that this is still happening even though it has brought up so much debate. I want to Thank Jeff Robison for having an open mind to the positive side of this. I do agree that it will raise the bar for all and, if we see where we dont like what is being taught, we can either ask them to correct it or we can put out for another bid. When we sent the bids out on January 4 2006, we used anyone that was in our database at the headquarters starting with members first and reaching to non members second. If you want to be on the list for future bidding information to be sent, email to me at Dennysdynakleen@aol.com and I will be sure that it gets to our database. I realize there are many things happening in PWNA but this is the main area I am focusing on at this point. I took this position as chairman from another BOD that resigned due to family health issues and just trying to pick up where he left off and go from there. One post had said if I was not bidding then it would not apply to me. I agree whole heartedly, That is the reason I am on this committee,, it does not apply to me other than handling the bidding process and not bidding.
Mark Hatten
PWNA Secretary
oneness
Member
MarkH said:
Let me ask you a question, and no, I'm not attacking or bashing, I'm genuinely curious. If you're the guy dissecting the bids, how do you know if a course is the best, if it is in an area outside your areas of expertise? Are others also going to be dissecting them? For example, if I were in your shoes, I would have no idea what would make a good KEC course, or a good Wood course.
MarkH said:
I don't think anyone has said that anyone wouldn't be honest...the point is that there is POTENTIAL there for dishonesty, and as someone else pointed out, while YOU may know you're honest, how do we (excluding myself, of course, as a non member and thus with no real say in anything).? As someone else pointed out, if this were a county contract that the county commission was to award bids, and a commissioner was bidding, it would be all over the papers...
As Doc mentioned in another thread in this forum, "BOD members are accountable to each other, the organization, and are held to a higher industry standard because we are in front leading by example." I would think leading by example and holding eachother to a higher standard would include avoiding even the appearance of dishonesty.
As far as board members profiting from their service, they can't, plain and simple. It's illegal.
MarkH said:
So essentially it is the position of the BOD that despite there being a conflict of interest in BOD members bidding, nothing is going to be done to modify the process?
MarkH said:
From what many are saying, the supposed bid requests didn't go out when you say they did, and no one has yet clearly responded to this other than to reiterate what you're saying here. At least two members have stated that their notice came 9 days before the deadline, and no one has yet pointed out where this bid request was published anywhere else, as has also been claimed.
oneness said:
I understand everyone feels very passionate about this topic and other surrounding the PWNA. I do appreciate your opinions regardless of your membership. As it has been mentioned in this thread and others why doesn’t the PWNA listen? Two things that come to mind; the PWNA BOD can not possible follow everyone’s recommendations. I would like to think I am right all of the time, fortunately or unfortunately my wife tells me different.
Some individuals have presented PWNA with excellent ideas which we are either processing or has been put onto a do list. The next item is the constant need for BOD members to share information with individuals who are not invested in the organization. We talk about how arrogant PWNA BOD is and how we continually remind non-members if they want to do more, if they want to see change, or if they would like a voice they must be a member. Perceive this as you may, I believe this format has continually proved this not to be the case considering many of the BOD reads and posts within this format and others. Why? Because we care.
oneness said:
Why is it illegal for individuals teaching a class to make money? Why is it illegal for PWNA BOD members teaching a class to make money? The charter is not-for-profit but does not mean we cannot pay individuals or companies for services.
I encourage all of you to look at past and present instructors particularly on the BOD. How much money has the PWNA paid them? The answer is easy, zero, notta, nothing. Surprised? PWNA provides certification "on the road" going to different cities in the US to help students afford and attend class. Would anyone care to send a check for the flight, hotel, food, time away from work, and time away from family? Why is it all right for BOD members to take money from their pockets to donate to the organization but not all right to be paid for performing a services?
We talk about the BOD having an unfair advantage to bid on courses yet we never discuss how unfair it is for the PWNA to take advantage of its instructors. My attempt is not for sympathy but for understanding. There is so much more to share but not enough words to condense this topic for reading purposes.
As a side note: I have posted in the past in several posts on this site and others, recently in this thread to call me to discuss further. No calls have been received from this thread and very few in the past pertaining to other threads.
The door is open to call the PWNA BOD or myself. We are willing to listen to those who disagree with the PWNA. Are those who disagree willing to share thoughts outside of a public format?
I always thought it was praise in public, punish in private. I believe some of us reading the post feel numbers and support are needed to beat some sense into the PWNA BOD. Maybe I have misunderstood posts written. It is difficult not to feel under attack.
A few people have taken the ear of a BOD member and have shared their feels about topics and I hear the results because it is part of the discussion during the PWNA monthly board meetings.
You can reach me by cell 847-922-4921
Regards,
oneness
Member
Doc said:
That perception has come from comments from BOD and regular members to the effect of "why are you even interested, you're not a member" and "if you want change, get off your ass and do something about it" (John T.) and "please submit your bio and application for a BOD position if you do not like what is going on" (Doc) (my assumption is that a membership is required to be on the BOD)
Doc said:
No one has suggested this should be expected either. No one has a problem, as far as I know, with paying an instructor for their time and expenses.
Doc said:
If the PWNA has taken advantage of instructors in the past, that should also stop (and I'm assuming from your words that it already has).
Doc said:
It was and is not my intent, nor do I think it is the intent of most involved in this discussion, to attack the PWNA. I have nothing to gain from attacking. My motivation is to increase my own understanding of the organization, how it handles issues such as this, etc.
While you and I may be able to discuss this via a phone call, or even private emails, we're not the only two involved in this discussion. That'd be fine if it were just the two of us involved, but when there are quite a few expressing concerns, my opinion is that it is best to deal with it in an open forum so everyone can keep up with what is being said and to whom.
oneness
Member
Doc said:
I never said it was illegal for them to get paid to teach a class. I said it was illegal for them to get paid for their service as a member of the board. This was in response to Jeff Robison's statement "I have no problem if they profit from their years of service to the organization by teaching classes to further educate members and non members."
Squirtgun
New member
Doc,
I think it's been said before most people prefer to discuss this in a open forum like this one.It gives everyone an opportunity to share their viewpoint.
Phone calls can lead to a "you said,I said" kind of thing.In the written or in this case typed word there is no way for anyone to try and hide their part in the conversation.
Controvercial Old threads about Education Programs
Dollarspa
Active member
" Should businessmen look for an organization that seems to say, "Join now, we want to make a difference, your opinion and good ethics are not required,"?"
Great quote scott I definetly agree with the point you were making....