Formal request to add 2 more categories

Great answers, Tony.

Nick---let me throw this out there. I'll assume that you and I agree that we belong to God---he created us. Let's also agree that for those that experience Christ and follow his teachings will inherit external life in heaven/visa versa if you don't follow Christ. I imagine we'd also agree that Heaven is supposed to be much BETTER than things are here, yes?

So that being said, could we maybe consider that God BLESSED those people by taking their daughter? "Blessed" isn't the right word, but the point is, God doesn't see things the way we do. You and I will fight, pray, etc. to keep our lives on this earth as long as possible. I bet God is up in heaven thinking, "Why are struggling so hard to keep your sinful life down there?!?! Come to Heaven! It is....well....Heavenly!! I am doing you a FAVOR by taking you from that sin-riddled place!"

See what I'm saying? Or course, our perception is one of sadness when we lose someone. But perhaps God is feeling happiness at that moment? As far as the "scum of the earth", again, keep in mind that God loves ALL OF US equally. Yep, that means me, you, your grandbaby, and Charlie Manson. Maybe if this little girl had lived, she'd have changed in some way and end up denying Christ and losing her soul. Maybe God still has hope for Charlie Manson? When you remember to consider that God loves all of us equally, it changes the way you look at things.
 
There is an old Muslim proverb that goes something like this.
Moses was in heaven with an angel and because he knew the angel had an assignment from God, he wanted to tag along and see the angel complete his work.
The Angel told Moses, "you can't go, because you will not be able to stand what you will see."
Moses kept after him, and finally the Angel said, "you can go, but you cannot comment on anything that happens, because, you will not be able to stand what you will see."
As the were going about doing the works of God, there was a boat in the sea. The Angel went to the boat, and had a giant wave capsize it, and the fisherman drowned. Moses started to protest, and the Angel reminded him, "I told you, you must remain silent, because you will not be able to stand what you will see."
They went to the next task, and found a young shepherd boy out tending his sheep. The Angel blew on him, and the boys' blood ran cold, and he died. Again, Moses protested, and the Angel reminded him, "you must remain silent, because, as I told you, You will not be able to stand what you will see."
Next, the Angel came to a widowed mother with her two sons. Their entire living was selling a few vegetables and melons from their garden. The Angel pushed the rock wall over, totally destroying the garden. Moses was even more adamant about his protests. The Angel told him that because he could not honor his promise to remain silent, he must return. But first, the Angel wanted to explain.
The men in the ship that drowned? Over the horizone was a pirate ship. They were going to rob the men, enslave them, and eventually after some torture, kill them. Drowning them saved them from this type of torture.
The shepherd boy? He was going to kill the only son of a mother. By killing him now, the shepherd boy could die innocently, and the mother would have her son to support her in her old age.
The Widow? At the base of the fence was a bag of gold that her husband had put there, that was sufficient to support her, and her sons for the rest of their days. They would find the gold on building the fence.

All of that is to say, we don't necessarily know why a young child is taken, perhaps it is to teach the child something, maybe it is to teach the parents something.
We also don't know why some of the scum of the earth is allowed to continue living. Maybe they are being given a chance to turn their life around, or in their evil deeds are going to teach an important lesson to one of their victims.
I do know that there is a purpose, as hard as it may be, for everything that happens, and that God is concerned with the details of our lives. I have had that proven out to me time and again.
 
Originally Posted by Tony Shelton
l discussion in here from me is my opinion also. My opinion has been known the change A LOT over the years. I don't think anyone will ever know ALL the truth while on this earth. Especially me.
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Originally Posted by Al Patterson
I agree with you Tony, I respect other peoples views even when I don't agree or understand it.
I like to ask questions of others beliefs because it makes me think about mine and I have something to compare....sometime people bring up good points and it makes you think.
Where we get into trouble is when we try to convince someone that we are right and they are wrong.
We are ALL going to be so far off when it is said and done...its not even to be funny!!! Our little minds can't even began to comprehend the "Big Picture"
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This really bothers me, because it is in direct conflict with the Bible. What ever happened to fasting, study, and prayer? It works. In fact, I fell pretty comfortable in saying that if someone tells you that you should not pray about something, that that person is not a man of God, but of the devil, because only the devil would tell you to not talk to God.
 
Scott Stone said:
Originally Posted by Tony Shelton

Originally Posted by Al Patterson


This really bothers me, because it is in direct conflict with the Bible. What ever happened to fasting, study, and prayer? It works. In fact, I fell pretty comfortable in saying that if someone tells you that you should not pray about something, that that person is not a man of God, but of the devil, because only the devil would tell you to not talk to God.
Click to expand...
I am not sure I understand your comment.
We are to still fast,study and pray (however I have not ever fasted)
But I will still listen to you Tony or anyone else if they want to share their faith and someone might bring up something that I did not understand and how they explain it to me might help me understand it better.

When Christianity get attacked on this board, you can learn from that as well.
" You will Know the tree by the fruit it bears ''


From the beginning and continuing through these days....Jesus and all his followers (Christians) were/are persecuted or attacked by non believers
and that is one of the greatest things that holds us back from talking about "God Grace" openly.
One thing I am thankful for on this board, some of the members here attacked my beliefs in public and that too was a blessing because it gave me the courage to stand up and Share what I believe in.
It is hard to stand up for what you believe in, because of what people might think about you.
Because of this board I have grown stronger in my faith, I worry less about what someone might think about me and sharing the "Gospel" which has always been one of my week spots.....but my faith is stronger therefore my Business is in Gods hands as well and he will use it to do "His Will" as well.
 
Scott Stone said:
Originally Posted by Tony Shelton

Originally Posted by Al Patterson


This really bothers me, because it is in direct conflict with the Bible. What ever happened to fasting, study, and prayer? It works. In fact, I fell pretty comfortable in saying that if someone tells you that you should not pray about something, that that person is not a man of God, but of the devil, because only the devil would tell you to not talk to God.
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Thanks Scott, I never looked at it that way. Shelly and I do all three. Two of them frequently (you've seen me, guess which one we don't do as much. :jester:)

Here's an example of what I was talking about in regards to learning and changing my mind. I used to think that because "singing" was mentioned in the new testament as something the early church did, then God must be displeased with anyone adding musical instruments to the singing. That belief was based on the law of exclusion. Over the years through lots of prayer and study, I found that the law of exclusion was a man-made law that came from a particular way of interpreting the bible (CENI - Command-example-and Necessary inference) After many years of prayer and study (and a little fasting :wave2:) I determined that CENI was not used by the new Testament authors in interpreting the old testament and was used more to advance pet doctrines. So God led me through study, fasting and prayer to a better understanding of his word.
 
The original post stated that someone could not be sure of where they would find truth. I believe that ypu can receive personal revelation through fasting and prayer, as well as study. There are a lot of truths in the Bible, as well as some contradictions. It is only through Prayer as tony pointed out that you can fully understand what the truth is, rather than believing someone else interpretation, because you cannot be sure of their qualifications and abilities in discerning truth.
I have had other denominations tell me that you can't pray to know truth because you might get bad revelation, but that it should be a purely intellectual pursuit. I think that is categorically false, and a lie perpetuated to force or enforce a belief system or,even more sinister, preserve a flock.
I would think that any pastor, preacher or cleric tht is fraud of a prayer to find truth has an ulterior motive tht has nothing to do with the congregants best interest.
 
Scott Stone said:
There is an old Muslim proverb that goes something like this.
Moses was in heaven with an angel and because he knew the angel had an assignment from God, he wanted to tag along and see the angel complete his work.
The Angel told Moses, "you can't go, because you will not be able to stand what you will see."
Moses kept after him, and finally the Angel said, "you can go, but you cannot comment on anything that happens, because, you will not be able to stand what you will see."
As the were going about doing the works of God, there was a boat in the sea. The Angel went to the boat, and had a giant wave capsize it, and the fisherman drowned. Moses started to protest, and the Angel reminded him, "I told you, you must remain silent, because you will not be able to stand what you will see."
They went to the next task, and found a young shepherd boy out tending his sheep. The Angel blew on him, and the boys' blood ran cold, and he died. Again, Moses protested, and the Angel reminded him, "you must remain silent, because, as I told you, You will not be able to stand what you will see."
Next, the Angel came to a widowed mother with her two sons. Their entire living was selling a few vegetables and melons from their garden. The Angel pushed the rock wall over, totally destroying the garden. Moses was even more adamant about his protests. The Angel told him that because he could not honor his promise to remain silent, he must return. But first, the Angel wanted to explain.
The men in the ship that drowned? Over the horizone was a pirate ship. They were going to rob the men, enslave them, and eventually after some torture, kill them. Drowning them saved them from this type of torture.
The shepherd boy? He was going to kill the only son of a mother. By killing him now, the shepherd boy could die innocently, and the mother would have her son to support her in her old age.
The Widow? At the base of the fence was a bag of gold that her husband had put there, that was sufficient to support her, and her sons for the rest of their days. They would find the gold on building the fence.

All of that is to say, we don't necessarily know why a young child is taken, perhaps it is to teach the child something, maybe it is to teach the parents something.
We also don't know why some of the scum of the earth is allowed to continue living. Maybe they are being given a chance to turn their life around, or in their evil deeds are going to teach an important lesson to one of their victims.
I do know that there is a purpose, as hard as it may be, for everything that happens, and that God is concerned with the details of our lives. I have had that proven out to me time and again.
Click to expand...



I may not read all of the post on all the bbs ...but I'm glad I read this one.
 
Scott Stone said:
The original post stated that someone could not be sure of where they would find truth. I believe that ypu can receive personal revelation through fasting and prayer, as well as study. There are a lot of truths in the Bible, as well as some contradictions. It is only through Prayer as tony pointed out that you can fully understand what the truth is, rather than believing someone else interpretation, because you cannot be sure of their qualifications and abilities in discerning truth.
I have had other denominations tell me that you can't pray to know truth because you might get bad revelation, but that it should be a purely intellectual pursuit. I think that is categorically false, and a lie perpetuated to force or enforce a belief system or,even more sinister, preserve a flock.
I would think that any pastor, preacher or cleric tht is fraud of a prayer to find truth has an ulterior motive tht has nothing to do with the congregants best interest.
Click to expand...

+1000 :clapping:

James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.
 
David Potter said:
I may not read all of the post on all the bbs ...but I'm glad I read this one.
Click to expand...


Totally agree, David. That was great....never heard that before.

Scott, my knowledge of LDS is very limited.....so what specifically are your thoughts on fasting? Do you (either "you" or LDS) have a specific day or the week or time that you fast? Do you believe it to be a command or just a elective practice?
 
We re asked to fast the first Sunday of each month. An important part of thw fast is the offering. This money is used to help those in need as decided by the local Bishop. A Bishop is similar to a local Priest or minister. The Bishop also has other resources to use as well, but most are funded by the fast offering.
We also pay a tithe on our income, which is totally different. They are both done on the honor system. No one checks up on you nor is there an enforced collection.
 
Al Patterson said:
When Christianity get attacked on this board, you can learn from that as well.
" You will Know the tree by the fruit it bears ''


From the beginning and continuing through these days....Jesus and all his followers (Christians) were/are persecuted or attacked by non believers
and that is one of the greatest things that holds us back from talking about "God Grace" openly.
Click to expand...
Ok, this post prompted a response, good bad or indifferent, I have to say this. 1st off, I was raised a Catholic, Alter Boy, read the epistle at my confirmation. I was really into my church until a event when I was about 14. Neither here nor there, but I quit going to that church cold turkey.

Now I read Al's post about being persecuted as a Christian and I really have a issue with it. After my incident with the Catholic Church I did not participate in a formal church setting for several years. And yes, I did and still do believe to my core in God above and Christ is my Savior. While stationed in Guam I was invited to a Baptist church. I attended as I could (military duties) and eventually was baptized as a adult. As much as I liked the fellowship, this sect of Christianity just didn't fit me.

Over the next few years I searched for some thing that felt good to me. I investigated Judaism, (Lost the word) Being a Muslim. I was pretty heavy into martial arts for quite a few years also, While active in that I even looked into Buddhism.

I guess the points I am getting to are this. ALL religions are persecuted. Christians in there own ways knock Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, even different sectors of Christianity, Some Christians I know knock the Mormon Faith for knocking on their doors to spread their word. If I am not mistaken, The full name of their Church "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". Sorry to any LDS members out there, I used Mormon to tie the 2 together, Mormon Church being a misnomer, believe me, NO offense intended. But they are a Christian based faith as was explained to me. (I might be wrong) and being Knocked by fellow Christians. The one's who don't like being persecuted????

Here is my take on Religion, Muslims, Jews, Christians, and maybe others, all have the same GOD. The ONE SUPREME BEING. With the exception of extremists, all have the same basic teachings. Love, Respect...... etc..

There are 10 different ways to get from my home to NYC. Who is to say which is the right way and which is the wrong way? Maybe God in his infinite wisdom, in knowing that his children, all being different, needed different methods to worship him. I might believe in Jesus Christ and accept him as my savior. But I can not put that possibility out of my mind. So I live my life quietly, will pray with my family, teach my daughter my beliefs and let other religions believe and worship the SAME God as mine in their own way. with no persecution.

Early in this thread I stated I was against a religious section, I was and still am. why, because I don't want to see any body persecuted for believing in their God or god as they see fit.

And I do believe that this Nation is, was and should REMAIN a Christian based Nation, with the freedom to practice your religion as you see fit.
 
I think that you are really on the same track as Al, because he claims that no one can know the one true way.
You are correct on the real name of the Mormon, or LDS church. It is "the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints."
My thought is there is one end goal for everyone. There is also only one God, so why shouldn't there be one religion. Think of it as a map, where the final destination is a dead end street, since there is only one destination. There can be a whole bunch of ways that get you close, but there is only one street that can get you all the way to the end.

BTW, my son is in Dyker Heights as a missionary, right now. He is assigned to proselyte spanish speakers, though.
 
Scott Stone said:
Think of it as a map, where the final destination is a dead end street, since there is only one destination. There can be a whole bunch of ways that get you close, but there is only one street that can get you all the way to the end.

BTW, my son is in Dyker Heights as a missionary, right now. He is assigned to proselyte spanish speakers, though.
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I am sure some one will correct me, but I am under the belief that every one is a child of God. In my teeny tiny miniscule mind, I cannot comprehend The One sitting in a throne (not that you described him as such) at the end of a 1 way street allowing his children to walk, fly, what ever down this one way street. to Him. Most one way streets I know of are pretty limited in size.

I kind of think of Him as being on top of a huge green grassy hill, (not a mountain) with His arms spread wide open, welcoming all who know Him in there specific way.

Where is Dyker heights? in the city? NYC?
 
Scott Stone said:
I think that you are really on the same track as Al, because he claims that no one can know the one true way.
You are correct on the real name of the Mormon, or LDS church. It is "the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints."
My thought is there is one end goal for everyone. There is also only one God, so why shouldn't there be one religion. Think of it as a map, where the final destination is a dead end street, since there is only one destination. There can be a whole bunch of ways that get you close, but there is only one street that can get you all the way to the end.

BTW, my son is in Dyker Heights as a missionary, right now. He is assigned to proselyte spanish speakers, though.
Click to expand...
Why not the same skin color, why not the same language? Why not the same tastes in food. Every one in the world is different. My sister was a National Roller skating champion, I hate roller skating. Same blood flows through our veins. different people.

Different people need different options.
 
Scott Stone said:
I think that you are really on the same track as Al, because he claims that no one can know the one true way.
You are correct on the real name of the Mormon, or LDS church. It is "the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints."
My thought is there is one end goal for everyone. There is also only one God, so why shouldn't there be one religion. Think of it as a map, where the final destination is a dead end street, since there is only one destination. There can be a whole bunch of ways that get you close, but there is only one street that can get you all the way to the end.

BTW, my son is in Dyker Heights as a missionary, right now. He is assigned to proselyte spanish speakers, though.
Click to expand...

Scott,
without picking it apart.....do you with most of what I posted about Salvation?

By the way I am glad and appreciate all you guys for making this thread what it is today.......THank You!!!
 
That would require God being double minded. Even in the Bible it chastises men for being double minded. In some religions premarital sex is allowed, and even encouraged. In others, though admittedly not mainstream religions, believe that it is okay to do sacrificial offerings. Others believe that sex with children is okay. So, how double minded should God be?
James 1:8 and James 4:8 both talk about being double minded, and God is a God of laws. If he is going to chastise his children for being double minded, because they are preaching, and doing diverse things, Why would he be double minded allowing multiple faiths to have access to him? In 1 peter 3:19, it talks about Christ preaching to spirits in prison, which tells me that there is preaching of the Gospel in the spirit world. In 1 corinthians 15:29 it talks about baptisms for the Dead, which tells me that even though baptism, with proper authority is necessary for salvation, it is available to all that accept the gospel, even if by proxy, as is talked about in this scripture.

Dyker Heights is in Brooklyn, somewhere close to Staten Island.
 
You quote the Bible Scott, I am not going to argue with what you are quoting from.

Jewish folk quote from a Torah, a roughly 5000 year old text, Different Religion, Different Holy Book, Same God

Muslims quote the Koran. 700 plus minus year old text I believe. Diff religion, Same God.

All 3 Books will tell you that their's is the way. All 3 will say any other way is wrong.

All 3 have the same God. Who is right, who is wrong. It boils down to faith in what YOU believe in.

Maybe the only thing my God, Your God (the same) or any religions God (from above list) is commitment to the persons beliefs and the teaching from the texts of their religion. Again, based in Faith.
 
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welder said:
You quote the Bible Scott, I am not going to argue with what you are quoting from.

Jewish folk quote from a Torah, a roughly 5000 year old text, Different Religion, Different Holy Book, Same God

Muslims quote the Koran. 700 plus minus year old text I believe. Diff religion, Same God.

All 3 Books will tell you that their's is the way. All 3 will say any other way is wrong.

All 3 have the same God. Who is right, who is wrong. It boils down to faith in what YOU believe in.

Maybe the only thing my God, Your God (the same) or any religions God (from above list) is commitment to the persons beliefs and the teaching from the texts of their religion.
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This is just my opinion, but I don't put my faith in "Religions"
they are devised by man, therefore that is why all the divisions they are in the world today when we talk about Religion.
For me I put my faith in the 'Word of God' and how the spirit works with me to understand what I may read.
As far as Listening to our preacher.....I still listen to him, and he will be the first to tell you that he can't explain everything and that we still need to be in the word and let the spirit speak to us through the Word.
 
Actually, the Bible and the Torah are very similar. In fact, the Torah is just the first 5 books of the old testamnet of the Bible.
The Quran, or Koran, is different. I use the Bible in this situation, what I believe, and why, because it is a book, or more correctly, group of books that everyone is familiar with.
Religion is a creation of man? Can you show me some scriptural basis for that? Christ said, to "follow me" and established a church with apostles to lead and preach his gospel while on the earth. He even laid hands on them to set them apart to preach his word. Sure sounds like he was establishing a central organization to me.
 
Scott Stone said:
Actually, the Bible and the Torah are very similar. In fact, the Torah is just the first 5 books of the old testamnet of the Bible.
The Quran, or Koran, is different. I use the Bible in this situation, what I believe, and why, because it is a book, or more correctly, group of books that everyone is familiar with.
Religion is a creation of man? Can you show me some scriptural basis for that? Christ said, to "follow me" and established a church with apostles to lead and preach his gospel while on the earth. He even laid hands on them to set them apart to preach his word. Sure sounds like he was establishing a central organization to me.
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Denominations are what I was referring to when I spoke of different Religions.
Seems like all the denominations (Baptist,Methodist,Jehovah witness ect...arrived after the Church was established.
I have no scripture to back it up as I mentioned it was just my opinion.
 
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