One or Two Man Crews?
- Thread starter David Saulque
- Start date
Sorry Josh - no such animal. The basic premise of GL is that one can never be liable to himself - including those over whom he has control (employees; partners, etc). You need first party health insurance which does not exclude injuries sustained at or is the result of your work. Out of some 2,000 carriers chartered to do business in the U.S. there may be only a few from which to choose. Many a self-employed person has learned this lesson the hard way. The only exceptions I have seen are those who are savvy and choose to be 'creative' when making the report of injury. Don't ask me to explain this.
In respect to general liability, most of what I have read on the various bbs is both misleading and potentially harmful. Perhaps more important than the GL is the addended PCO (products and completed operations). GL defends you if something unforeseen and unintended were to occur during the course of the job. PCO protects you if something occurs after completion of job and you have relinquished control, such as leaving a tool on the roof and it falls and hits someone (just happened to me - however it didn't hit anyone), or perhaps you left chemical in the soak tank or elsewhere and injury occurs. We need PCO more than the GL. It is not likely you have it in place unless you ask. It's inexpensive.
The third possibility to satisfy you clients is to obtain a bond. Often you will be asked if you are bonded. It is a virtual certainty the inquirer hasn't a clue what it is he asked. There are so many types - license; permit; official; notary; E&O; fidelity; performance; contract; fiduciary; - this list could be expanded but you get the idea. The easiest way to handle this is to obtain a 'permit' bond. Easy to do - find any municipality which requires any permit and run the bond to them. Doesn't matter if it is required. Annual cost approx $15. You can now demonstrate that you indeed are 'bonded'. It's a great tool.
Richard
In respect to general liability, most of what I have read on the various bbs is both misleading and potentially harmful. Perhaps more important than the GL is the addended PCO (products and completed operations). GL defends you if something unforeseen and unintended were to occur during the course of the job. PCO protects you if something occurs after completion of job and you have relinquished control, such as leaving a tool on the roof and it falls and hits someone (just happened to me - however it didn't hit anyone), or perhaps you left chemical in the soak tank or elsewhere and injury occurs. We need PCO more than the GL. It is not likely you have it in place unless you ask. It's inexpensive.
The third possibility to satisfy you clients is to obtain a bond. Often you will be asked if you are bonded. It is a virtual certainty the inquirer hasn't a clue what it is he asked. There are so many types - license; permit; official; notary; E&O; fidelity; performance; contract; fiduciary; - this list could be expanded but you get the idea. The easiest way to handle this is to obtain a 'permit' bond. Easy to do - find any municipality which requires any permit and run the bond to them. Doesn't matter if it is required. Annual cost approx $15. You can now demonstrate that you indeed are 'bonded'. It's a great tool.
Richard
dodsonish
Grease Police President
For bonding-
So all I do is, go to the City of Arnold, ask for a permit bond, and they'll know what I need? What does a permit bond do?
You seem to have lots of useful information. I've thought of another way for you to make your $$millions. "Encyclopedia Travel", everything anyone needs to know about anything.
Maybe you can throw a copy in on your RETCH certification, promational tools.
So all I do is, go to the City of Arnold, ask for a permit bond, and they'll know what I need? What does a permit bond do?
You seem to have lots of useful information. I've thought of another way for you to make your $$millions. "Encyclopedia Travel", everything anyone needs to know about anything.
Maybe you can throw a copy in on your RETCH certification, promational tools.
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I thought about the 'Encyclopedia' concept, but then I discovered there is a new mode already available. It's called a 'search engine'. I think I'll stay with hood cleaning. Business has been good since my former associate and I legitimately advertised 'We Are The Oldest Hood Cleaning Company in the U.S.A.' (the two of us are 129 years old).
A 'permit' bond that is conditioned only that you intend to obey the ordinances applicable to the trade or business and are freely written. In reality there is no risk at all to the surety company - I've never figured out why they are issued at all since there is no guarantee of payment (taxes or fees). This is why they are freely written. Most insurance agents can immediately issue that kind of permit bond. There will something you do (dumpsters? drive-thru pads? mechanical?) that could have a non-enforced bond requirment. Ask the agent - he/she will know. I am guessing that a 4 year bond will cost about $60 - just an educated guess.
I have decided to revise the RETCH acronym for my certificate-mill. For some strange reason it has met with strong resistance - just can't figure it out!
Richard
A 'permit' bond that is conditioned only that you intend to obey the ordinances applicable to the trade or business and are freely written. In reality there is no risk at all to the surety company - I've never figured out why they are issued at all since there is no guarantee of payment (taxes or fees). This is why they are freely written. Most insurance agents can immediately issue that kind of permit bond. There will something you do (dumpsters? drive-thru pads? mechanical?) that could have a non-enforced bond requirment. Ask the agent - he/she will know. I am guessing that a 4 year bond will cost about $60 - just an educated guess.
I have decided to revise the RETCH acronym for my certificate-mill. For some strange reason it has met with strong resistance - just can't figure it out!
Richard
Josh,
On second thought (I don't remember if I had a first - I forget a lot) you may have what you need already. At some point your fast-growing empire will require a notary public. Are you a notary? If wife helps in the business is she a notary? Sooner or later you will need a notarial bond anyway - you could have the 4-year bond issued now and simply hold it until you are ready to appeal for a notary appointment. Tricky ain't I?
Richard
On second thought (I don't remember if I had a first - I forget a lot) you may have what you need already. At some point your fast-growing empire will require a notary public. Are you a notary? If wife helps in the business is she a notary? Sooner or later you will need a notarial bond anyway - you could have the 4-year bond issued now and simply hold it until you are ready to appeal for a notary appointment. Tricky ain't I?
Richard
Douglas Hicks
Member
Didn't I meet your 29 year old partner last week?
Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc
Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc
David Saulque
Senior Moderator
RAMS ? What happen? 8 months!!!!!
Larry Hinckley
Hall of Fame Member
Josh,
Thank you for your reply to my question. I'm sorry that I haven't responded before now. I've been off from work for the last week and just returned today. What you said makes sense if you can only save 1/2 hour per job. I would have thought that an extra employee would make a bigger difference however as I told you earlier vent cleaning isn't my speciality.
How do you feel about safety issues involved in working alone?
Thank You
Thank you for your reply to my question. I'm sorry that I haven't responded before now. I've been off from work for the last week and just returned today. What you said makes sense if you can only save 1/2 hour per job. I would have thought that an extra employee would make a bigger difference however as I told you earlier vent cleaning isn't my speciality.
How do you feel about safety issues involved in working alone?
Thank You
Douglas,
Computer crashed and now can access only when visiting my kids - they are not as cheap as me and have working 'puters.
I was driving through your town on the way to Portland. It may have been me you saw in my truck. I have the looks and athletic body of a 29 year old, but in reality am a bit older. I am actually a few years older than you, unbelievable as that may seem!
Richard
Computer crashed and now can access only when visiting my kids - they are not as cheap as me and have working 'puters.
I was driving through your town on the way to Portland. It may have been me you saw in my truck. I have the looks and athletic body of a 29 year old, but in reality am a bit older. I am actually a few years older than you, unbelievable as that may seem!
Richard
Larry,
That is just Josh's experience. I have done many repeat jobs with one man and again with two men. It is highly dependent upon the second man. We work together like a well-oiled machine, and can complete any job. safely, in much less than half the time any one person can accomplish the same job. When one uses 'friends' or others on an 'occasional' basis it then meets with the experience of those who save little time. It takes 3 or 4 months to really work together perfectly. With a less experienced helper I have found that I save little or no time at all - often I would rather do it myself than use an occasional helper. This is the total difference in operation.
Richard
That is just Josh's experience. I have done many repeat jobs with one man and again with two men. It is highly dependent upon the second man. We work together like a well-oiled machine, and can complete any job. safely, in much less than half the time any one person can accomplish the same job. When one uses 'friends' or others on an 'occasional' basis it then meets with the experience of those who save little time. It takes 3 or 4 months to really work together perfectly. With a less experienced helper I have found that I save little or no time at all - often I would rather do it myself than use an occasional helper. This is the total difference in operation.
Richard
Larry Hinckley
Hall of Fame Member
Richard,
Thank you for the explanation. I was pretty much of the opinion that if one person can do as much work as two that there must be something wrong.
Thank you for the explanation. I was pretty much of the opinion that if one person can do as much work as two that there must be something wrong.
dodsonish
Grease Police President
David-
I thought I'd at least get to root for KC. Oh well, Go Colts.
Larry-
Keep a cell phone in your pocket and hope you don't fall while your alone. If your not careful you might get stuck on a roof or something. I'd say over all though that the same safety issues are there whether one or two men are working.
I also had a customer demand at least 2 people for security purposes.
Richard-
Do you operate with one power washer per job?
I thought I'd at least get to root for KC. Oh well, Go Colts.
Larry-
Keep a cell phone in your pocket and hope you don't fall while your alone. If your not careful you might get stuck on a roof or something. I'd say over all though that the same safety issues are there whether one or two men are working.
I also had a customer demand at least 2 people for security purposes.
Richard-
Do you operate with one power washer per job?
Larry Hinckley
Hall of Fame Member
Thank you Josh.
Dlee
New member
One Man Crew. NOT!
David Saulque,
Last night I cleaned my first Kitchen Exhaust System (KES) alone. I thought I would personally test the theory of One Man vs. Two Man Crews.
Something to remember when just starting in this business is there is theory and there is the reality. The one man crew theory can work if we lived in a perfect world.
What I mean is if the Kitchen Exhaust System (KES) is being maintained on a regular reoccurring basis like the ones you are exposed to in a classroom environment then by all means a one man crew can be demonstrated with room for overkill. It is very important not to take a neglected (1 or more years) Kitchen Exhaust System lightly. No matter how much or little of volume the restaurant cooks. Things happen that are unforeseen and I won't bore you with any specific details. But there were many issues I had to deal with I bet I made ten trips up and down the ladder in the three hours I was on the roof.
I started my first KES cleaning at 4:00 pm and was rolling off the premise in my truck, trailer in tow at 01:50 am. 9hrs & 50 min.
6' Hood
6' Vertical Duct
Fan
Last time Cleaned: Unknown
When I woke up this morning and I figured out that I wasn't paralyzed, just a little stiff from the stress of it all. I realized how great this business could be if done the right way. I for one will never attempt to perform an initial cleaning alone and a three man crew is looking very promising on initial cleanings at this point.
Shame on those who promote the One Man Crew School of Hood Cleaning. If they change their marketing stategy to "How to pick a One Man Vent A Hood Cleaning" then they might favor better with experienced veterans of this industry.
David Saulque,
Last night I cleaned my first Kitchen Exhaust System (KES) alone. I thought I would personally test the theory of One Man vs. Two Man Crews.
Something to remember when just starting in this business is there is theory and there is the reality. The one man crew theory can work if we lived in a perfect world.
What I mean is if the Kitchen Exhaust System (KES) is being maintained on a regular reoccurring basis like the ones you are exposed to in a classroom environment then by all means a one man crew can be demonstrated with room for overkill. It is very important not to take a neglected (1 or more years) Kitchen Exhaust System lightly. No matter how much or little of volume the restaurant cooks. Things happen that are unforeseen and I won't bore you with any specific details. But there were many issues I had to deal with I bet I made ten trips up and down the ladder in the three hours I was on the roof.
I started my first KES cleaning at 4:00 pm and was rolling off the premise in my truck, trailer in tow at 01:50 am. 9hrs & 50 min.
6' Hood
6' Vertical Duct
Fan
Last time Cleaned: Unknown
When I woke up this morning and I figured out that I wasn't paralyzed, just a little stiff from the stress of it all. I realized how great this business could be if done the right way. I for one will never attempt to perform an initial cleaning alone and a three man crew is looking very promising on initial cleanings at this point.
Shame on those who promote the One Man Crew School of Hood Cleaning. If they change their marketing stategy to "How to pick a One Man Vent A Hood Cleaning" then they might favor better with experienced veterans of this industry.
dodsonish
Grease Police President
Re: One Man Crew. NOT!
I'm sure that any of the veterans of this industry could clean that hood, one man, in a couple of hours. Even with a lot of build-up.
One word should explain how- experience.
I also have to disagree with the one man theory, it is in fact a reality not a theory. We don't live in a perfect world, but there are one man hood cleanings happening every day.
The reason this job took you 10 hours is because you are inexperienced and untrained for a one person operation. Not because you were a one man operation. The class rooms that ACS trains in for hood cleaning are real restaurants with real grease. They don't just teach you how to clean a hood, they teach how to do it with one person.
This bad first experience shouldn't be blamed on "The One Man Hood Cleaning School". It's not their fault that you couldn't do the one man job.
Dlee said:
I'm sure that any of the veterans of this industry could clean that hood, one man, in a couple of hours. Even with a lot of build-up.
One word should explain how- experience.
I also have to disagree with the one man theory, it is in fact a reality not a theory. We don't live in a perfect world, but there are one man hood cleanings happening every day.
The reason this job took you 10 hours is because you are inexperienced and untrained for a one person operation. Not because you were a one man operation. The class rooms that ACS trains in for hood cleaning are real restaurants with real grease. They don't just teach you how to clean a hood, they teach how to do it with one person.
This bad first experience shouldn't be blamed on "The One Man Hood Cleaning School". It's not their fault that you couldn't do the one man job.
David Saulque
Senior Moderator
The second man is only as good as he is managed by the crew leader. If the second man is dialed in the times will be much less.
All jobs can be completed with 2 people, can't say the same for the one man crew.
David Lee was trained and we don't know the condition description of the hood.
All jobs can be completed with 2 people, can't say the same for the one man crew.
David Lee was trained and we don't know the condition description of the hood.
Dlee
New member
"Welcome to the real world."
Josh,
I agree that one man crews are a reality in some stretches of the hood cleaning world. And Dave is right I tried not to mention the condition of the hood and exhaust due to the fact "I am in-experienced as Hood Cleaner" but not untrained.
Josh, who is experienced on their very first job under their own company banner. It takes an experience to get the experience(Agree)
Fact - I wanted the job and knew that the exhaust system had never been cleaned in the last ten years. Welcome to the real world, Yes they are out there.
Sure the hood and filters get wiped down by the staff and it looks semi-maintained to any would be inspector.
Before I took the job I completely inspected the system and performed some fan maintenance to get the fan working again, the automotive belt that was on the fan was so stretched out, it would not even turn the fan. Got the fan working at the proper speed with the right belt.
This was a Mexican restaurant that seats about 50 people. They serve breakfast, lunch and dinner six days a week.
The grease in the flue was about 1/8" thick but it was hard as a rock and abrasive to the touch. Beneath the top layer was carbonized grease or some black stuff not sure what to call it. It was tough to get off. Scraping was not as effective as Rotomax and chemical.
The point I'm trying to make here is this:
I can see that a ONE MAN CREW is possible if the system is being maintained on a regular basis. And I will probably employ this technique again but, not on an initial cleaning and certainly not on neglected systems. ("I feel the experience coursing through my veins")
Yes I think I understand how the schools work when they take the student to the field. It has been cleaned three to six months prior or less but, it has been cleaned prior no matter what the interval is. (Admit it!)
I am just trying to add contrast to this thread so that any want-to-be hood cleaner that reads this thread can have a real world example of what can happen in this field. As for the the One Man School of Hood Cleaning I was making a suggestion not a pun.
My in-experience tells me it took Ten hours because it had never been cleaned. But I did finish the job and the owner paid me extra, he was there and saw what I was dealing with. He is a good man. And wants me to come back on regular intervals.
Make Contributions not Retributions and we all win.
Time fly’s when you are having fun.
Josh,
I agree that one man crews are a reality in some stretches of the hood cleaning world. And Dave is right I tried not to mention the condition of the hood and exhaust due to the fact "I am in-experienced as Hood Cleaner" but not untrained.
Josh, who is experienced on their very first job under their own company banner. It takes an experience to get the experience(Agree)
Fact - I wanted the job and knew that the exhaust system had never been cleaned in the last ten years. Welcome to the real world, Yes they are out there.
Sure the hood and filters get wiped down by the staff and it looks semi-maintained to any would be inspector.
Before I took the job I completely inspected the system and performed some fan maintenance to get the fan working again, the automotive belt that was on the fan was so stretched out, it would not even turn the fan. Got the fan working at the proper speed with the right belt.
This was a Mexican restaurant that seats about 50 people. They serve breakfast, lunch and dinner six days a week.
The grease in the flue was about 1/8" thick but it was hard as a rock and abrasive to the touch. Beneath the top layer was carbonized grease or some black stuff not sure what to call it. It was tough to get off. Scraping was not as effective as Rotomax and chemical.
The point I'm trying to make here is this:
I can see that a ONE MAN CREW is possible if the system is being maintained on a regular basis. And I will probably employ this technique again but, not on an initial cleaning and certainly not on neglected systems. ("I feel the experience coursing through my veins")
Yes I think I understand how the schools work when they take the student to the field. It has been cleaned three to six months prior or less but, it has been cleaned prior no matter what the interval is. (Admit it!)
I am just trying to add contrast to this thread so that any want-to-be hood cleaner that reads this thread can have a real world example of what can happen in this field. As for the the One Man School of Hood Cleaning I was making a suggestion not a pun.
My in-experience tells me it took Ten hours because it had never been cleaned. But I did finish the job and the owner paid me extra, he was there and saw what I was dealing with. He is a good man. And wants me to come back on regular intervals.
Make Contributions not Retributions and we all win.
Time fly’s when you are having fun.