EPA Enforcement in 2012 Protects Communities From Harmful Pollution
- Thread starter Robert Hinderliter
- Start date
Robert Hinderliter
Hall of Fame Member
Steven Button
Administrator
"If your discharge wash water does not reach water of the United States, there are no requirements under the CWA. No off property discharge."
Does this not pretty much end the conversation for the majority of sidewalk and building cleaning contractors using water only on regular maintenance accounts?
Does this not pretty much end the conversation for the majority of sidewalk and building cleaning contractors using water only on regular maintenance accounts?
Steven Button
Administrator
Can anyone cite studies (other than what is here: http://cfpub.epa.gov/npdes/stormwat...action=factsheet_results&view=specific&bmp=72) on effectiveness of bio retention areas?
Or information on on-site stormwater management building/development code standards for commercial new construction. I want to look at this from another point of view in that where the responsibility for waste water lies with property owner... Has treatment for discharge already been taken care of in the form of dry retention/detention ponds, interceptors, bio retention ponds (lined/unlined), grassed swales, etc.
Good resource for post construction BMP Factsheets: http://cfpub.epa.gov/npdes/stormwater/menuofbmps/index.cfm?action=min_measure&min_measure_id=5
So if these elements are incorporated onsite and the pressure washing contractor is applying reasonable methods in removal of debris and removing oil - where is the problem?
Or information on on-site stormwater management building/development code standards for commercial new construction. I want to look at this from another point of view in that where the responsibility for waste water lies with property owner... Has treatment for discharge already been taken care of in the form of dry retention/detention ponds, interceptors, bio retention ponds (lined/unlined), grassed swales, etc.
Good resource for post construction BMP Factsheets: http://cfpub.epa.gov/npdes/stormwater/menuofbmps/index.cfm?action=min_measure&min_measure_id=5
So if these elements are incorporated onsite and the pressure washing contractor is applying reasonable methods in removal of debris and removing oil - where is the problem?
Al Patterson
Member
I would Appreciate if you left my name out of this thread....no one one here knows my business or my finances.....Nor do i I i want people calling me and asking...because it is my business not anyone else's.
Steven Button
Administrator
In looking for effectiveness of structural BMPs I found thisnresource - thorough breakdown of types and effectiveness, a must read for all contractors to further understanding of this topic.
http://www.lincoln.ne.gov/city/pworks/watrshed/educate/bmpguide/pdf/bmpguid3.pdf
http://www.lincoln.ne.gov/city/pworks/watrshed/educate/bmpguide/pdf/bmpguid3.pdf
Tony Shelton
BS Detector, Esquire
You brought you own name into this. Are you ever going to have the guts to stand up and say you lost $30k due to believing a bunch of lies about how much money you were going to make reclaiming? How can you sleep at night knowing others are being taken advantage of because you won't stand up and tell the truth?
Tony Shelton
BS Detector, Esquire
Outstanding Steven!!
I was glad to see the effectiveness of the structures listed as percentages.
If we were to believe the garbage we have been fed in the past few years it would seem like once we gravity filter our runoff from the sidewalk, it goes into a structure where it removes up to 98% of what is left, and there is an EPA agent waiting for a rainstorm with a tester looking for that 2% to take us to jail. It's ludicrous.
These structures and WE, as environmental contractors are cleaning the environment! Don't let anybody tell you different.
Clean County PW
Active member
I'll take a crack at this Steve-- In your above example I'd say yes. Obviously don't ever hold me to that because I'm not legal council.
Also like you I'm reading up on some of this and there making it clear there is no oil residue on the impervious surface etc. And things along those lines. The more I read the more it looks like if your doing absolutely nothing with your wash water runoff and some code enforcer writes you a summons, in the court of law you may lose.
Steven Button
Administrator
But if the wash water is going to an on property structural BMP approved by code enforcement prior to construction and passed on inspection, are we not meeting our obligation? If designed correctly and matched to property type/runoff produced it will not ever reach MS4 or US waters.
I believe that for the specific area of sidewalk cleaning/drive thru cleaning we are dealing with runoff issues further down the chain of CWA/EPA compliance - the 'big fish' have already dealt with compliance at a local and state level when having construction plans approved (educated guess, I can not cite a specific reference at this time). If a violation slips through the net at pre-construction plan approval, code enforcement inspection, etc. and we have performed 'good housekeeping' (sweeping, debris removal, mud collection, oil sheen removal) who is responsible?
More to be gained further up the chain from us...
I am not advocating off-property discharge or irresponsible practices, but we seem to be missing the point on this issue is often taken care of at the construction stage.
I believe that for the specific area of sidewalk cleaning/drive thru cleaning we are dealing with runoff issues further down the chain of CWA/EPA compliance - the 'big fish' have already dealt with compliance at a local and state level when having construction plans approved (educated guess, I can not cite a specific reference at this time). If a violation slips through the net at pre-construction plan approval, code enforcement inspection, etc. and we have performed 'good housekeeping' (sweeping, debris removal, mud collection, oil sheen removal) who is responsible?
More to be gained further up the chain from us...
I am not advocating off-property discharge or irresponsible practices, but we seem to be missing the point on this issue is often taken care of at the construction stage.
Clean County PW
Active member
On your last question here above-- the problem seems to be what is considered to be reasonable methods of removal of debris and removing oil in the Persons Geographical area of employment..
Some area's appear to be stricter then other area's.. Since this Enviro stuff is a bit complicated I'll use a law Analogy that happened to me and my father a few yrs ago at the Seaside heights boardwalk @ the Jersey Shore(since devastated by hurricane Sandy)
Both our cars had summons on them for facing backwards in the parking spaces. Like an idiot I took these parking tickets and trashed them. A yr later it caught up to us. The $25 fine became a bit more by the time it got back to me & my father. I had to pay even though there were no signs saying you can't back into the parking space. It was there town ordinance and as all law enforcement knows "Ignorance" is not a defense.
Clean County PW
Active member
This line here says a ton--"Building codes and local government ordinances vary greatly on the handling of storm drain runoff"
I'd still say yes to your above answer but they so fine tooth this stuff because of Enviromental fanatics & revenue stream. Those are 2 bookends to pigeon hole us.
This is where I agree with Robert Hinderliter on with his BMP's. There guidelines. There is no 1 fits all. You need to know your area and Then restructure his BMP's to work for that area. His are done thru extensive research and actually sitting in with regulators.
I also like alot of Tony's & Ron's ideas but there's would most likely be trouble if the shizz was to hit the fan and you run into a code enforcer who's about to write you and there advising you to tell that person doing his job- how to do his job and he can't write you for xxx violation.
It's similar in attitude towards Robert. Confrontational. Then that becomes a 2 way street if you understand what I'm saying.
To cut to the chase-- in a perfect world your answers from here where I'm reading them are correct.
Robert Hinderliter
Hall of Fame Member
Steven:
There are general guidelines, but nothing is fast and hard! The EPA sets the discharge limits and your local AHJ sets the acceptable BMPs.
There are jurisdictions that do not honor "If your discharge wash water does not reach water of the United States, there are no requirements under the CWA. No off property discharge." The only recourse against jurisdictions that do not honor this is litigation. And the AHJs normally have more money than does the Contractor.
It comes down to "you have to know your territory".
Robert Hinderliter
Hall of Fame Member
Steven:
This type of information is presented at StormCon Conventions. It is given in Seminars by AHJs and Manufacturers. I believe if go to their website there will be links where you can find this information.
Clean County PW
Active member
Ron & others that have been cleaning for 30 yrs & longer may tell you they heard this somewhere else, or they were the first to tell people this... I wouldn't know.
But the first person in my 18yrs now owning my own Powerwashing business that I ever heard say this about commercial cleaning was to the very least put a berm around storm drains if need be and/or just rinse you wash water to landscape area's was ......Robert...probably around 1998-99.
I remember somewhere on the net in 99-2000 when I finally got the nerve to post(lurked for @ least a yr) I posted somewhere probably on Delco's bb which is long gone now that I thought the same as some of the guys today do.. I can let all my wash water go anywhere I want it to because I'm cleaning
But the first person in my 18yrs now owning my own Powerwashing business that I ever heard say this about commercial cleaning was to the very least put a berm around storm drains if need be and/or just rinse you wash water to landscape area's was ......Robert...probably around 1998-99.
I remember somewhere on the net in 99-2000 when I finally got the nerve to post(lurked for @ least a yr) I posted somewhere probably on Delco's bb which is long gone now that I thought the same as some of the guys today do.. I can let all my wash water go anywhere I want it to because I'm cleaning
Clean County PW
Active member
First off thanks for taking the time Nigel for filming these educational video's.
So from my take just the water run off from the rain it's carrying pollutants in it which will eventually reach the US waters via a storm drain. So now if that roadway was concrete and a surface machine was used on it and you collected the water from the runoff from that its probably going to be blackened even more.
This is why because of stringent rules if an AHJ were to appear and did a test on the run off there may be problems if there is at least no oil sock for example in there somewhere.
Where not talking about what we want to be allowed to do. Where talking about what could happen to us..
So that's my take.. Is it similar to yours at all?
So from my take just the water run off from the rain it's carrying pollutants in it which will eventually reach the US waters via a storm drain. So now if that roadway was concrete and a surface machine was used on it and you collected the water from the runoff from that its probably going to be blackened even more.
This is why because of stringent rules if an AHJ were to appear and did a test on the run off there may be problems if there is at least no oil sock for example in there somewhere.
Where not talking about what we want to be allowed to do. Where talking about what could happen to us..
So that's my take.. Is it similar to yours at all?
Steven Button
Administrator
The direction of my points is not a push to be allowed to put our wash water anywhere because I'm cleaning, more in line with keeping it on property using what is already there structurally and practicing responsible methods in dirt/debris removal and oil sheen removal.