Tony Shelton
BS Detector, Esquire
Nigel, can you see now what a nightmare dealing with each individual POTW could be?
EPA Enforcement in 2012 Protects Communities From Harmful Pollution
- Thread starter Robert Hinderliter
- Start date
810f250
Griffs Services PowerWash
Robert, in the scenario the wash water would all be from the same customer/property.
One set of rules on the books and another enforced indeed.
Thats what I have been hearing/told , that the small contributions add up.
Thanks for the links.
810f250
Griffs Services PowerWash
I have only dealt with two, the state EPA (MDE) handed me a list of all Maryland POTW contacts and basically said "its on you".
MDE remarked they would like to see discharge go there, but cant make the POTW's accept out water, ..............but thinking back now, they never mentioned anything about properties that may have systems in place , and that I should evaluate on a per location basis (just thinking out as I was typing)
Nevertheless it was a chore but one POTW as I mentioned in earlier post has moved to develop reasonable (with respect to particulate size ) .......BMP's for their POTW discharge
Robert Hinderliter
Hall of Fame Member
Bill:
This is a good question, I first ran into in CA in the early 90s. If you recycle long enough your waste water will test Hazardous by a TCLIP test, then you have to have a Hazardous Waste Hauler's Permit, CDL, etc. If you limit your recycle time and it does not test Hazardous, then you can transport it if you generated it in most jurisdictions.
The reason we named our systems Recycle 16 and Recycle 20 is because in all of our test in the field with Contract Cleaners if you purged the system after 16 or 20 hours of recycling then the waste water never tested Hazardous. That is purge your system before 16 or 20 hours depending on the unit, then refill with fresh water.
It would probably go longer, but I did not consider it worth the risk. The longer you can recycle, the more expensive is the Recycling System exponentially. In other words, twice as long costs 4 time as much (2x2=4)
If you are the generator of the Hazardous Waste, then you can haul it to the disposal site in most jurisdictions. You cannot haul Hazardous Waste that you did not generate without all of the licenses.
Note: The last paragraph is information that is about 10 years old, I am not aware of any changes. If someone has more current information please respond with references for verification. The problem is that the above information is a moving target, and I have found that Trade Associations is the best place to keep current with everything new coming.
This is a good question, I first ran into in CA in the early 90s. If you recycle long enough your waste water will test Hazardous by a TCLIP test, then you have to have a Hazardous Waste Hauler's Permit, CDL, etc. If you limit your recycle time and it does not test Hazardous, then you can transport it if you generated it in most jurisdictions.
The reason we named our systems Recycle 16 and Recycle 20 is because in all of our test in the field with Contract Cleaners if you purged the system after 16 or 20 hours of recycling then the waste water never tested Hazardous. That is purge your system before 16 or 20 hours depending on the unit, then refill with fresh water.
It would probably go longer, but I did not consider it worth the risk. The longer you can recycle, the more expensive is the Recycling System exponentially. In other words, twice as long costs 4 time as much (2x2=4)
If you are the generator of the Hazardous Waste, then you can haul it to the disposal site in most jurisdictions. You cannot haul Hazardous Waste that you did not generate without all of the licenses.
Note: The last paragraph is information that is about 10 years old, I am not aware of any changes. If someone has more current information please respond with references for verification. The problem is that the above information is a moving target, and I have found that Trade Associations is the best place to keep current with everything new coming.
Robert Hinderliter
Hall of Fame Member
Tony:
It is a nightmare. In the Dallas/Fort Worth there are 115 Jurisdictions; so what most contractors do is follow the EPA's Model Ordinance which most Municipalities are accepting.
There are very few jurisdictions that will work together. In 1995 I was able to get all of the DFW Municipalities to commit to having one standard; however, we are no closer to that happening then it was in 1995.
Ill still get time to respond in print as weekend goes by. I always appreciate the conversation.
Text me anytime for question 480-522-5227
Robert Hinderliter
Hall of Fame Member
Tony Shelton;294515 I have a question for you Nigel. IF Contech can sell and install gravity driven filtration systems that produce runoff that is compliant said:
Tony Shelton
BS Detector, Esquire
Robert, I know this is becoming monotonous, but I'm going to try once again to get an answer that makes some kind of sense to this question:
Following are the BASMA BMP's. That is the BAY AREA OF CALIFORNIA, the toughest state in the nation on pollution.
My question is WHY in the world, when you made new BMP's would you go beyond this simple and wonderful BMP they have used for a long time.
The exact same "model" bmp is used by municipalities around the country.
We, as contractors, have been able to work and make money virtually unmolested for a long time using these BMP's.
Here they are:
Robert, I sent you a copy of these BMP's when you asked for "suggestions" before the PWNA bmp's were adopted, and you ignored my pleas to keep it simple like this.
Compare the two:
BASMAA
Notice, this is the RECOMMENDED BMP by BASMAA under the following circumstances, wash water may be discharged:
To the street or storm drain
Wash water from cleaning sidewalks, plazas, and building exteriors, if:
• You have successfully used dry cleanup methods (described in the “tips” section of this folder to remove fresh oil stains, debris, and similar pollutants—before using water
AND
• Cleaning is done with water only—no soap or other cleaning chemicals
AND
• Water has not removed paint.
PWNA
Contrast that to YOUR Bmp's that start right off the bat saying "not recommended" and throw in the hot water "caveat".
Discharge to Storm Drains - not recommended
• Never discharge detergents, chemicals, or hot water to Storm Drains.
• Washing with cold water (less than 110°F) and no chemicals is considered no worse than a rain event and may be discharged to Storm Drains for surfaces that do not have oil and grease or other contaminants.
• Water that is greater than 110°F is considered hot water and considered the same as using soap.
- Hot water is an emulsifier and similar to using a detergent.
• Discharges must be free of foam and oil sheen.
- An oil sock will remove foam and oil sheen.
I have searched high and low for the statement above in bold and I can't find it anywhere on the internet in relation to the EPA, POTW, or any other government agency. You took a concept that was unheard of in the industry and introduced it as a snare to make virtually ALL contract cleaning that previously fell into the category of non-hazardous into hazardous.
The damage inflicted by this can only be eclipsed by your constant repeating of the false phrase "nothing down the drain but rain".
Frequent contract cleaners had it so good, all we had to do to be compliant was pre-clean, filter for debris, clean the area and go on to the next job. It was a simple thing we asked you to do. We just asked you to remove all reference to "emulsifier".
Everybody knows not to allow water over 110 into the lake, but unless you are using hot water on the dock it will never make it to the lake at 110 degrees!
So I ask you again. WHY? Why would you sabotage our industry like this?
Please give an answer that makes some kind of sense.
And, when you KNOW the UAMCC does not support your BMP's anymore why are you continuing to use this false advertising on the PWNA's website?
Robert Hinderliter
Hall of Fame Member
Poster earlier:
I believe, as Doug said earlier today, that we are all individuals and my approach is entirely different than Nigel's would appear to be. I am not saying that you are wrong Nigel, I am just saying that no one has to be in fear of their livelihood being stripped away because they can't meet Nigel's understanding of the propaganda that surrounds the now bastardized CWA.
I have trained many contract cleaners to deal with their local AHJs, typically they will have a 15 minute meeting that will last two hours; in fact had a situation similar to that today.
If you will watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1sthfkJcE0 which is segment 1 of 8, you should have no fear and with a little effort you will be an expert and can talk about an 18 year track record, which will be accepted a lot faster than something less than a couple of years old.
To be the most effective you have to build of the generation in front of you; not start over. It is easier to change what is already established, then to start over.
I believe, as Doug said earlier today, that we are all individuals and my approach is entirely different than Nigel's would appear to be. I am not saying that you are wrong Nigel, I am just saying that no one has to be in fear of their livelihood being stripped away because they can't meet Nigel's understanding of the propaganda that surrounds the now bastardized CWA.
I have trained many contract cleaners to deal with their local AHJs, typically they will have a 15 minute meeting that will last two hours; in fact had a situation similar to that today.
If you will watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1sthfkJcE0 which is segment 1 of 8, you should have no fear and with a little effort you will be an expert and can talk about an 18 year track record, which will be accepted a lot faster than something less than a couple of years old.
To be the most effective you have to build of the generation in front of you; not start over. It is easier to change what is already established, then to start over.
Tony Shelton
BS Detector, Esquire
Can you show me where the EPA defines our discharge as "Process Wastewater" and how the rules are different? Is Contech not processing rain runoff?
I can't find a differentiation in the EPA's rules for these two types of similar discharges.
We are not dumping the millions of gallons of sludge a storm produces. We are not dumping thousands of gallons of feces into the water like the NPDES permit allows wastewater treatment plants to do when they are overwhelmed. Our impact is a net positive.
I disagree with your suggestions Robert, I do not believe asking owners permission is correct. I also just do not think it can be taught as option, it needs to be a definite when you practice this. Meaning it has to be the right choice for the Particular situation.
Where do we go from here ?
These steps are not what or how I practice, plus your mixing Hazmat Pads suggestions into my type of cleaning process. Please Robert wash Bays for Sidewalk cleaning, maybe a Mat? LOL
I really do not mean to be so silly how I look at this but some of this is vary entertaining.
Suggesting I use a Carwash for waste water? I'm lost for words
The Only Place to dump waste water is pretreatment facility. If you have the proper permissions and monitoring Sanitary. If your never Leaving the property in sidewalk cleaning NO OFF PROPERTY DISCHARGE IS FIRST.
No other methods are acceptable, this is why Billy Bob has been dumping in his backyard.
I agree Robert, lets not change the methods we have practiced responsibly for 28 years. I realize this means you really want to change it....
Where do we go from here ?
These steps are not what or how I practice, plus your mixing Hazmat Pads suggestions into my type of cleaning process. Please Robert wash Bays for Sidewalk cleaning, maybe a Mat? LOL
I really do not mean to be so silly how I look at this but some of this is vary entertaining.
Suggesting I use a Carwash for waste water? I'm lost for words
The Only Place to dump waste water is pretreatment facility. If you have the proper permissions and monitoring Sanitary. If your never Leaving the property in sidewalk cleaning NO OFF PROPERTY DISCHARGE IS FIRST.
No other methods are acceptable, this is why Billy Bob has been dumping in his backyard.
I agree Robert, lets not change the methods we have practiced responsibly for 28 years. I realize this means you really want to change it....
Robert Hinderliter
Hall of Fame Member
Ron Posted above: I agree Robert, lets not change the methods we have practiced responsibly for 28 years. I realize this means you really want to change it....
Ron: What you do not understand is that what you have practiced for the last 28 years does not count, It what's in the regulations and the standards from the Feds.
Sorry, but my opinion has been shaped by attending a lot of Training Courses for Regulators, holding conferences with regulators, making many presentations for regulators, MCing regulatory discussions for a room full of regulators. At then end of every regulator meeting I always ask if anyone disagrees with me, and what those disagreements are. Over the years those disagreement have been less and less.
What you want to do is shoot the messenger.
Ron: What you do not understand is that what you have practiced for the last 28 years does not count, It what's in the regulations and the standards from the Feds.
Sorry, but my opinion has been shaped by attending a lot of Training Courses for Regulators, holding conferences with regulators, making many presentations for regulators, MCing regulatory discussions for a room full of regulators. At then end of every regulator meeting I always ask if anyone disagrees with me, and what those disagreements are. Over the years those disagreement have been less and less.
What you want to do is shoot the messenger.
No Robert I do not want to involve my segment of this industry into storm water management. Property owners are responsible for there pollution, our industry will never be qualified to handle and transport waste.
The laws have been in effect for construction to comply. I'm going with this as the source not the methods you want to come with. I have seen your methods fail in other markets. They are failing in Houston. They have failed in MI,GA and many other city's.
This is the truth Robert, MI even wrote a apology to current business people for the poor info given by the pwna. It's fact Robert and you will say this didn't involve you. Just like Houston's situation had nothing to do with your influence either.
Robert I just don't think you have industry support. But that doesn't matter, you will do what you want. I will do what I want. Working together isn't going to happen, I'm ok with that , realized long ago you where not going to change.
Text me anytime for question 480-522-5227
The laws have been in effect for construction to comply. I'm going with this as the source not the methods you want to come with. I have seen your methods fail in other markets. They are failing in Houston. They have failed in MI,GA and many other city's.
This is the truth Robert, MI even wrote a apology to current business people for the poor info given by the pwna. It's fact Robert and you will say this didn't involve you. Just like Houston's situation had nothing to do with your influence either.
Robert I just don't think you have industry support. But that doesn't matter, you will do what you want. I will do what I want. Working together isn't going to happen, I'm ok with that , realized long ago you where not going to change.
Text me anytime for question 480-522-5227
Funny thing is no one knows that if I had not had the engineers call Graig Millers boss in NC they would be reclaiming houses because they read one of your documents about how small the contaminant where coming off the houses.
I ask why would you as the industry advocate for contractors say such a thing in official documents to regulators.
Because its true!!! The words are vary catchy to, they almost make us feel like your pulling for us.
Text me anytime for question 480-522-5227
I ask why would you as the industry advocate for contractors say such a thing in official documents to regulators.
Because its true!!! The words are vary catchy to, they almost make us feel like your pulling for us.
Text me anytime for question 480-522-5227
With all due respect to you Sir. I did not realize that your role was to find out what they wanted and give it to them. I thought that an industry advocate would be fighting to help them understand that what a steel mill does and what a sidewalk cleaner does are two entirely different things.
You don't intend to represent us to them, you intend to represent them to us. So you receive all of the push back and resentment from the industry that should be reserved for regulators and you don't understand why. But now I do.
Robert Hinderliter
Hall of Fame Member
With all due respect, you make those statements due to a lack of knowledge.
Robert Hinderliter
Hall of Fame Member
[h=1]Basic Rules of the CWA[/h]
Basic Rules you need to know within the CWA (Clean Water Act).
Basic Rules you need to know within the CWA (Clean Water Act).
- The CWA prohibits a point source discharge of pollutants into waters of the United States without an NPDES Permit.
- If your discharge wash water does not reach waters of the United States, there are no requirements under the CWA. No Off Property Discharge.
- No Oil Sheen on discharged wastewater.
- Discharge only “Drinking Water Quality” wastewater.
- The Generator is responsible for “Cradle to Grave” of his waste.
- It is unlawful for any person to discharge any pollutant from a point source into navigable waters of the state.
- Private citizens can sue the government or other private citizens for violation of the CWA.
- The EPA can delegate many of the permitting, administrative, and enforcement aspects of the CWA to the states. The state then becomes a “Designated State”.
- The EPA Authorizes the “Superfund” to clean up uncontrolled or abandoned hazardous-waste sites, or other releases of pollutants.
- The CWA authorizes the EPA to seek out parties responsible for any releases into the environment and assure their cooperation in the cleanup.
- The EPA is authorized to recover costs from viable individuals and companies for cleanup.
- The EPA does not approve products, processes, or technology but sets specific discharge objectives that dischargers must meet.
- Regulators investigate complaints on a decrensary basis.
- The CWA says that you cannot dilute your discharge with water to achieve Discharge Limits.
Robert Hinderliter
Hall of Fame Member
[h=1]Terminology[/h]
Terms you need to be familiar with for this presentation.
1. The EPA is very specific when it comes to classifying Waste Wash Water: “Waste Wash Water is considered a source of Industrial Waste”.
2. “Process Water” means any water, which during manufacturing or processing, comes into direct contact with or results from the production or use of any raw material, intermediate product, finished product, byproduct, or waste product.
3. “Pollutant” means dredged spoil, solid waste, incinerator residue, filter backwash, sewage, garbage, sewage sludge, munitions, chemical wastes, biological materials, radioactive materials, heat, wrecked or discarded equipment, rock, sand, cellar dirt, and industrial, municipal, and agricultural waste discharged into water.
4. “Point Source” means any discernible, confined, and discrete conveyance, including but not limited to, any pipe, ditch, channel, tunnel, conduit, well, discrete fissure, container, rolling stock, concentrated animal feeding operation, landfill, leachate collection system, vessel or other floating craft from which pollutants are or may be discharged.
5. “Non-Point Source”: Any source of pollution not associated with a distinct discharge point.
6. AHJ: Authority Having Jurisdiction.
7. POTW: Public Owned Treatment Works (Sewer Plant)
8. MS4: Municipal Separate Storm Sewer System (Storm Sewer Piping. Also includes street gutters and drain ditches along the highway if they empty into waters of the state.)
9. BMP: Best Management Practices means schedules of activities, prohibition of activities, maintenance procedures, and other management practices to prevent or reduce the pollution of the MS4 and waters of the United States. BMPs also include treatment requirements, operating procedures, and practices to control plant site runoff, spillage or leaks, sludge or waste disposal, or drainage from raw material storage.
10. Hazardous Waste may be corrosive, reactive, or toxic.
11. Cosmetic Cleaning means cleaning done for cosmetic purposes. It does not include industrial cleaning, cleaning associated with manufacturing activities, hazardous or toxic waste cleaning, or any cleaning otherwise regulated under federal, state, or local laws.
12. Illicit Discharge: Any discharge to an MS4 that is not composed entirely of storm water with some exceptions.
Terms you need to be familiar with for this presentation.
1. The EPA is very specific when it comes to classifying Waste Wash Water: “Waste Wash Water is considered a source of Industrial Waste”.
2. “Process Water” means any water, which during manufacturing or processing, comes into direct contact with or results from the production or use of any raw material, intermediate product, finished product, byproduct, or waste product.
3. “Pollutant” means dredged spoil, solid waste, incinerator residue, filter backwash, sewage, garbage, sewage sludge, munitions, chemical wastes, biological materials, radioactive materials, heat, wrecked or discarded equipment, rock, sand, cellar dirt, and industrial, municipal, and agricultural waste discharged into water.
4. “Point Source” means any discernible, confined, and discrete conveyance, including but not limited to, any pipe, ditch, channel, tunnel, conduit, well, discrete fissure, container, rolling stock, concentrated animal feeding operation, landfill, leachate collection system, vessel or other floating craft from which pollutants are or may be discharged.
5. “Non-Point Source”: Any source of pollution not associated with a distinct discharge point.
6. AHJ: Authority Having Jurisdiction.
7. POTW: Public Owned Treatment Works (Sewer Plant)
8. MS4: Municipal Separate Storm Sewer System (Storm Sewer Piping. Also includes street gutters and drain ditches along the highway if they empty into waters of the state.)
9. BMP: Best Management Practices means schedules of activities, prohibition of activities, maintenance procedures, and other management practices to prevent or reduce the pollution of the MS4 and waters of the United States. BMPs also include treatment requirements, operating procedures, and practices to control plant site runoff, spillage or leaks, sludge or waste disposal, or drainage from raw material storage.
10. Hazardous Waste may be corrosive, reactive, or toxic.
11. Cosmetic Cleaning means cleaning done for cosmetic purposes. It does not include industrial cleaning, cleaning associated with manufacturing activities, hazardous or toxic waste cleaning, or any cleaning otherwise regulated under federal, state, or local laws.
12. Illicit Discharge: Any discharge to an MS4 that is not composed entirely of storm water with some exceptions.
Robert Hinderliter
Hall of Fame Member
Hazardous Waste
Point Source Discharge
“Hazardous Waste”, Some of the determining factors are:
Although the statute does not limit EPA’s regulatory authority to only the uppermost aquifer, the groundwater monitoring regulations only require that the uppermost aquifer be monitored.
Point Source Discharge
“Hazardous Waste”, Some of the determining factors are:
- Is it corrosive?
- Is the pH equal to or less than 2
- Is the pH equal to or greater than 12.5
- Is it Reactive?
- It is normally unstable and readily undergoes violent change without detonating.
- Reacts violently with water.
- It forms potentially explosive mixtures with water.
- When mixed with water, it generates toxic gases, vapors or fumes on a quantity sufficient to present a danger to human health or the environment.
- Is it Toxic? Toxic substances may impact living organisms by:
- An acute injurious effect exhibited immediately after exposure
- A chronic injurious effect exhibited at some later date
- Permitted Treatment, Storage, and Disposal Facilities (TSDFs) for Hazardous Waste under the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act (RCRA) are generally required to have a Groundwater Monitoring Program in place. The objectives of the Groundwater Monitoring Program are:
- Detection Monitoring – to detect if a release has occurred.
- Compliance Monitoring – to determine if the Groundwater Protection Standard has been exceeded once a release has occurred.
- Corrective Action – to remediate a release to the uppermost aquifer.
Although the statute does not limit EPA’s regulatory authority to only the uppermost aquifer, the groundwater monitoring regulations only require that the uppermost aquifer be monitored.
Robert Hinderliter
Hall of Fame Member
monitored
The EPA does not list “used oil” as hazardous waste since the standards that were promulgated were sufficient to ensure used oil would be handled safely.
Wash water from the washing of houses may be contaminated with metals (lead, chromium, cadmium, or mercury) in the paint, or asbestos from siding or shingles. Easy to use “Lead Test Kits” are available at your local hardware store, like Home Depot and Lowes. They are about $4.00.
