Apple Cider Recipe

[Al Patterson]

I really think that almost ALL the folks on this forum are TRUE Pro's Al.
And they represent the cream of the crop in their respective areaS.
Larry, Scott, Ken, Tom, Chris, Nick, Kory, and everyone else is here trying to be the BEST they can be

Yeah there might be a few more pro's out there...but I talked to Larry for 3 hours or so one night this week and he is the only one that invited me to come down and stay in his Living Room!!! (free of charge !!!!)

 

[Al Patterson]

One quick ? for the Pro's.....if you wash half a roof for demo purposes and you come back later ....week or so......will it all blend in when you complete the whole roof?

 

[Larry Millette]

One quick ? for the Pro's.....if you wash half a roof for demo purposes and you come back later ....week or so......will it all blend in when you complete the whole roof?

Yes!!!

 

[Al Patterson]

Yes!!!

See ...only one PRO answered!!!!

 

[Scott D.]

I have had several conversations with Owens Corning Tech Services, as well as GAF and Certainteed.
The ARMA Bulleting advises a WEAK solution of bleach/TSP for a REASON.
They could easily have suggested straight bleach, but choose instead to strengthen the weak bleach with TSP.
Back YEARS ago, I started out with a small Shurflo, 1.8 GPM at 100 PSI.
I used strong mix, and "misted" it on with small tip.

I SAW firsthand, when I returned years later to re clean these roofs, what this does to roofs.

Looking back at the bulletin, it ranges from 5 to 1 (water to sh) to 1 to 1 (50/50). The bulletin also says nothing about putting alcohol in the mix. Come on Chris, you either have to stick with the ARMA bulletin, or not. You cant preach the AMRA bulletin, then push "apple cider".

Now, Both apple cider and sauce work well, ive used both. They do NOT work any better or worse than just SH and water (at any dilution). Meaning 50/50 w/ borax and TSP will work just as well as 50/50 without borax and TSP. 60/40 will work the same without borax and TSP as it will with it.

When I said 60/40 up above, I meant it as 60% water to 40% SH, not the other way around. And Ive never gone over 50% water / 50% SH.

I think where the irresponsibility comes into play here is in the debate over which pumps/hose sizes to use. For pros who have been doing it a long time, a 10gpm pump will be fine most of the time. For someone w/ none or only a few roofs under their belts, anything over 3-5gpm is dangerous, regardless of the SH/water mix. And for vets to recommend these larger pumps, I think, does the newer guys a disservice and is irresponsible.

 

[Scott D.]

One quick ? for the Pro's.....if you wash half a roof for demo purposes and you come back later ....week or so......will it all blend in when you complete the whole roof?

Yes! Just make sure your mix is fresh on both days and at the same dilution.

 

[Apple Roof Cleaning]

Looking back at the bulletin, it ranges from 5 to 1 (water to sh) to 1 to 1 (50/50). The bulletin also says nothing about putting alcohol in the mix. Come on Chris, you either have to stick with the ARMA bulletin, or not. You cant preach the AMRA bulletin, then push "apple cider".

Now, Both apple cider and sauce work well, ive used both. They do NOT work any better or worse than just SH and water (at any dilution). Meaning 50/50 w/ borax and TSP will work just as well as 50/50 without borax and TSP. 60/40 will work the same without borax and TSP as it will with it.

When I said 60/40 up above, I meant it as 60% water to 40% SH, not the other way around. And Ive never gone over 50% water / 50% SH.

I think where the irresponsibility comes into play here is in the debate over which pumps/hose sizes to use. For pros who have been doing it a long time, a 10gpm pump will be fine most of the time. For someone w/ none or only a few roofs under their belts, anything over 3-5gpm is dangerous, regardless of the SH/water mix. And for vets to recommend these larger pumps, I think, does the newer guys a disservice and is irresponsible.

I Wasn't even going to respond to this post Scott
But I would hate to see someone come across this "information" and take it as gospel truth ?
It is untrue that TSP, Borax, Surfactants, Alcohols, etc, etc, do not improve the cleaning capabilities of SH/Water alone.
You seem to have "unlearned" that Scott.

With hat steep of a roof, It would suit you to bag the gutters. Take plastic trash bags and wrap them around the gutters (so the gutters empty into the bag) and secure it with duct tape, velcro or blue painters tape. It will collect the extra run off you get from the pitch of the roof. Also, add more soap to your mix for extra cling and a longer dwell time, giving you a better clean and using less chemicals.

As for the asboestos shingle, we've never come across one.

Here you are Scott, telling someone to add some Soap to their mix for "better cleaning, and use less Chemicals"
Now, you are out here saying that adding TSP or Borax to the mix makes NO difference ???
FEW Soaps even approach the cleaning power of TSP, much less equal it.
Borax is a Potent cleaner in it's own right.
I grew up sort of, in a Junkyard.
Dad always had Borax around to HELP the bar of handsoap clean our hands from excessive dirt/grease.

Scott, are you seriously gonna sit here and tell all us roof cleaners that TSP don't work ?

It does work, and it especially works at lower concentration mixes of SH/Water.
Here is why.
Pure SH has a HIGH PH, water does not.
When we mix SH with water, the MORE water, the lower the final PH of the solution becomes.
The LOWER the PH of any SH/Water solution, the less Hyporchlorite Ion is released that does the cleaning.'
This Reaction is more favorable at HIGHER PH's.
So, we use TSP to Raise the PH of weaker SH/Water Solutions.

As far as sugggesting large pumps for newcomers goes, yes we do
I think it is correct to say I have trained a lot of roof cleaners.
They are instructed to "clean some roofs" with WATER until they become accustomed to the high flow pumps
If I am personally training them, we actually go up WITH them on the roof.
NEVER have we had anyone say "Chris, I can't "handle" this good of a pump".
ALL get the hang of it pretty quick.
Actually, we have a Forum FULL of New Roof Cleaners using these BIg Pumps
We aim to turn out Competitive roof cleaners Scott.

Here is our latest trainee being "taught irresponsibly" by my Men, and Me.

 

[Christopher]

I Wasn't even going to respond to this post Scott
But I would hate to see someone come across this "information" and take it as gospel truth ?
It is untrue that TSP, Borax, Surfactants, Alcohols, etc, etc, do not improve the cleaning capabilities of SH/Water alone.
You seem to have "unlearned" that Scott.



Here you are Scott, telling someone to add some Soap to their mix for "better cleaning, and use less Chemicals"

Chris, re-read what Scott wrote here.

In other words, by adding soap it gives more "cling" so the chemicals don't run off so fast and easily thus overall using less chemicals to do the job by having less runoff.

We all want less runoff and more "cling" so we all benefit.

He did not write add soap and use less chemicals. Here is what he wrote again:

Also, add more soap to your mix for extra cling and a longer dwell time, giving you a better clean and using less chemicals.

Hope we are all on the same page now. hahahahahahaha

 

[Mike Cooke]

Chris, re-read what Scott wrote here.

In other words, by adding soap it gives more "cling" so the chemicals don't run off so fast and easily thus overall using less chemicals to do the job by having less runoff.

We all want less runoff and more "cling" so we all benefit.

He did not write add soap and use less chemicals. Here is what he wrote again:

Also, add more soap to your mix for extra cling and a longer dwell time, giving you a better clean and using less chemicals.

Hope we are all on the same page now. hahahahahahaha

Nope it the same ole Chris Tucker my way are the highway!!

This is so old Chris!!

 

[Scott D.]

Chris, re-read what Scott wrote here.

In other words, by adding soap it gives more "cling" so the chemicals don't run off so fast and easily thus overall using less chemicals to do the job by having less runoff.

We all want less runoff and more "cling" so we all benefit.

He did not write add soap and use less chemicals. Here is what he wrote again:

Also, add more soap to your mix for extra cling and a longer dwell time, giving you a better clean and using less chemicals.

Hope we are all on the same page now. hahahahahahaha

Thanks Chris. Anything anyone says can be misconstrued against them.

Chris T., I never said that TSP or Borax are not good cleaners, just that adding them to the mix does not make it clean any BETTER.

Thats great that you are teaching someone hands on how to use the equipment properly. But most people (especially at RCIA) do not have the luxury of learning hands on, and are being fed that a 15 gpm pump is the best way to go. The big reason I dont really go there anymore is because of the "my way" mentality.

 

[Apple Roof Cleaning]

Chris, re-read what Scott wrote here.

In other words, by adding soap it gives more "cling" so the chemicals don't run off so fast and easily thus overall using less chemicals to do the job by having less runoff.

We all want less runoff and more "cling" so we all benefit.

He did not write add soap and use less chemicals. Here is what he wrote again:

Also, add more soap to your mix for extra cling and a longer dwell time, giving you a better clean and using less chemicals.

Hope we are all on the same page now. hahahahahahaha

I am well aware of cling and run off Chris.
I have spent a great deal of my time finding an emulsifier that works well with the roof cleaning chemicals.
That is not what I was responding to at all.
I was responding to this

Now, Both apple cider and sauce work well, ive used both. They do NOT work any better or worse than just SH and water (at any dilution). Meaning 50/50 w/ borax and TSP will work just as well as 50/50 without borax and TSP. 60/40 will work the same without borax and TSP as it will with it.

This has Nothing to do with Cling at All Chris.
This post was to ME
Scott was talking to ME in this post of his, NOT the guy with a steep roof.
He makes the assertation that adding chemicals to the mix do not improve the cleaning capabilities of it.
Here is the rest of his post.

. Come on Chris, you either have to stick with the ARMA bulletin, or not. You cant preach the AMRA bulletin, then push "apple cider".

Now, Both apple cider and sauce work well, ive used both. They do NOT work any better or worse than just SH and water (at any dilution). Meaning 50/50 w/ borax and TSP will work just as well as 50/50 without borax and TSP. 60/40 will work the same without borax and TSP as it will with it.

When I said 60/40 up above, I meant it as 60% water to 40% SH, not the other way around. And Ive never gone over 50% water / 50% SH.

I think where the irresponsibility comes into play here is in the debate over which pumps/hose sizes to use. For pros who have been doing it a long time, a 10gpm pump will be fine most of the time. For someone w/ none or only a few roofs under their belts, anything over 3-5gpm is dangerous, regardless of the SH/water mix. And for vets to recommend these larger pumps, I think, does the newer guys a disservice and is irresponsible.

So, as you can hopefully SEE, the post of Scotts was to ME, and had nothing to do with Cling ??

 

[Scott D.]

Yes Chris but you took an old post of mine and misconstrued its meaning. This is all very pointless.

Here is a fact. I have used every combo, and they all work well. None better than another.

What you want to put in your mix is your business and has no bearing on mine. Just dont preach that your way is the best because it will be called out.

And a small sidenote, we use soaps now only on about 10% of roofs. We have cut our cleaning times down by a third, and reduced our chemical usage by about 20%, and this is with NO soap at all most of the time.

Different strokes.

 

[Apple Roof Cleaning]

Nope it the same ole Chris Tucker my way are the highway!!

This is so old Chris!!

What is Old Mike ?
Practically every roof cleaner I have ever known adds something to their mix.
To say TSP and other chemicals added to the roof cleaning mix does NOTHING for the cleaning capability of it is not good information, IMHO.

Yes, Scott is entitled to HIS Opinion.
But to leave incorrect information like that unchallenged on PWI could make this Forum the laughing stock of the roof cleaning world.

PWI is all ABOUT good information Mike.
That is why people come here.

Every Hack knows SH and water will "clean a roof" already
No need to come to PWI for that.
People COME to PWI to learn better ways to clean

HOW can they learn, if we don't teach them ?

 

[Jet Stream Pressure]

Give it a rest..I think this post will start to get out of hand are you teaching how to fight.the he said she said. No wonder I do not post much here

 

[Apple Roof Cleaning]

What you want to put in your mix is your business and has no bearing on mine. Just dont preach that your way is the best because it will be called out.

And a small sidenote, we use soaps now only on about 10% of roofs. We have cut our cleaning times down by a third, and reduced our chemical usage by about 20%, and this is with NO soap at all most of the time.

Different strokes.

You do it your way, I will do it mine
We give OUR customers their moneys worth
Too BAD my old hard drive crashed ?
I had many roof cleaning pictures showing the difference of TSP and other cleaning chemicals added to the mix

SOME are looking for an "easier, softer way".
Your message will play well with them.
Others are looking for the very best way to clean a roof.
My message, and that of most roof cleaners who add chemicals to their mix, will play to them.

Oh, on a "sidenote", the addition of SH Compatable Cleaning Chemicals to SH for improved cleaning is a well documented and accepted chemical practice.
Several US Patents, books on Detergent Formulations, and the entire scientific community verify this.

 

[Scott D.]

Chris, you make it sound as if I am saying that your mixes are not good. They are. Just not any better than mine. Just because "most roof cleaners" add something to their mix, does not mean every roof cleaner has to.

This is why you are driven off of every board, and I am not. Your way is the only way, and any other way makes someone a hack.

Show me where my information is "Incorrect"....? An opinion can not be incorrect without FACTS to back up your argument. Non existant pictures do not count as proof.

Careful Chris, We will both be banned soon if we keep it up. Grow up and learn to accept that you are not THE authority on roof cleaning. Neither am I, obviously. I would appreciate you stopping the attacks on my business also.

 

[Jet Stream Pressure]

Scott check your pm on Don's site

 

[Apple Roof Cleaning]

Chris, you make it sound as if I am saying that your mixes are not good. They are. Just not any better than mine. Just because "most roof cleaners" add something to their mix, does not mean every roof cleaner has to.

This is why you are driven off of every board, and I am not. Your way is the only way, and any other way makes someone a hack.

Show me where my information is "Incorrect"....? An opinion can not be incorrect without FACTS to back up your argument. Non existant pictures do not count as proof.

Careful Chris, We will both be banned soon if we keep it up. Grow up and learn to accept that you are not THE authority on roof cleaning. Neither am I, obviously. I would appreciate you stopping the attacks on my business also.

LOL Scott, I sense you are trolling ?
I didn't know I was "that powerful" to "effect your business.

What a SHAME.
I spent HOURS with you on the phone, trying to help you, when you were new,
And that was not so long ago.
I bent over backwards to help you Scott, even tried to warn you about THAT Roller Pump,
I was there for you when you ran into that weird tile roof, remember that ?
When you were in Iraq, I took time out of my day to help your wife out with running your roof cleaning business, as far as answering questions regarding roof cleaning she was unfamiliar with.
I gave you a link on my web site to help "get you started", and pushed you to make a website.
Even showed you a lot about optimizing it.

Now, you sit here and have the nerve to accuse me of "trying to harm your business" ?

HOW ??

 

[Scott D.]

Chris. You have no power to affect my business. I am just asking you to stop attacking it. It's just not nice.

I never deny that you helped get us started, and I still express my gratitude for it to other contractors (ask Chris C.), and I dont attack you. I question the mixes you push like gospel, and you attack me. The attacks are one sided. I dont know why you can't handle being questioned, or there being more than one "correct" mix to clean a roof.

I think it is your ego at stake. Nothing else.

Either way, It was very rude of us to hijack Donnies thread.

Donnie for 35 Gallons use

10.5 gl Sh
24.5 gl Water
1/3 of a gallon rubbing alcohol
and 1 large bottle of Ajax.

Dont take what I've said out of context. This mix WILL clean very well.

 

[Apple Roof Cleaning]

Show me where my information is "Incorrect"....? An opinion can not be incorrect without FACTS to back up your argument. Non existant pictures do not count as proof.
.

Well, since you don't believe ME, how about an excerpt from a US Patent ?
It costs a lot of R&D and development Money to get something Patented.

Here is a little proof that other chemicals, properly mixed with SH, improve cleaning

Further, the combination of ingredients is unique in that the chlorinated bleach solution will clean mold, mildew, fungus, algae, and other stains on outdoor surfaces, but at the same time the surfactant or surfactants act as a buffer in that they combine with and retard the harshness of the chlorinated bleach solution and enhance the action of the chlorinated bleach solution by emulsifying organic oils and any animal fatty acids and dirt residue. The surfactants are also penetrants that will actually penetrate porous surfaces and help lift the foreign matter to the surface for easy removal.

(But wait, theres More}


According to the present invention, the surfactant can be any surfactant that is miscible with water and compatible with concentrated chlorinated bleach solutions.
(Why are they looking for a chlorine compatable surfactant if SH/Water is all you need)
The phrase "compatible with concentrated chlorinated bleach solutions" means that the surfactant and chlorinated bleach solutions are soluble in each other without reacting or changing their chemical composition. The surfactant must be suitable for [COLOR=#f26522 !important][COLOR=#f26522 !important]storage[/COLOR][/COLOR] with hypochlorite solutions without loss of its cleaning ability and without reaction.

The surfactant emulsifies the oils and dirt impregnated in the surface being cleaned as well as any perfume or odorant oils added to the inventive composition. Further, the surfactant emulsifies undesirable materials in and on the surface being cleaned and helps remove these undesirable materials such as oxidized oils and dirt.

Preferably, the surfactant is an amine oxide, a lauryl betaine, an ethoxylated carbon chain compound and/or a sulfonated carbon chain compound.

Specific examples of such surfactants suitable for use in the present composition include a lauryl dimethyl amine oxide, a lauryl betaine, an ethoxylated hydrogenated tallow amine, a nonylphenol ethoxylated or triethanol amine salt of an alkylauryl sulfonate or an octylphenoxy polyethoxy ethanol. An amine oxide, a lauryl betaine, or an octylphenoxy polyethoxy ethanol are especially preferred.

The surfactant can be one or a combination of surfactants and the total percent by volume ranges from about 0.1 to about 10 percent. The preferred amount of surfactant is about 1 percent by volume.

According to the present invention, the alcohol can be any of a primary, secondary or tertiary alcohol, as long as it is compatible with concentrated chlorinated bleach solutions. The phrase "compatible with concentrated chlorinated bleach solutions" means that the alcohol and chlorinated bleach solutions are soluble in each other without reacting or changing their chemical composition.

Specific examples of suitable alcohols that are useful in the present composition, on a 100 percent basis, include methyl alcohol, ethyl alcohol and its denatured counterparts, and isopropyl alcohol.

Isopropyl alcohol and/or methyl alcohol are preferred. Ethyl alcohol and its denatured counterparts are less desirable because of high cost and the complexity of the denaturant formulas. Higher alcohols such as butyl, octyl, and decyl alcohol are not desirable because they dry too slowly.

The alcohol aids the penetration of the surfactant and bleach (hypochlorite) into the surface and helps emulsify undesirable oils. The alcohols can be used alone or in combination.

The alcohol is used in an amount of from about 0.1 to about 8 percent by volume, and an amount of about 0.5 to 1.2 percent by volume is preferred.

(Here's HOW to Order)
This Patent is what Apple Cider is loosely based on.
I make NO Money off the sale of it.
It is given freely is the public domain from one roof cleaner to another.
You have to make it yourself, if you want to use it.
This WAS "the way it was" in the OLD days.
Cleaning recipes were handed down from one Cleaner to another
Use what you want.