One Call Power
New member
Do you see our Government as a corrupt Government ?
Where do you stand ?
- Thread starter One Call Power
- Start date
Grant
Administrator
Abolish is perhaps a little over the top for what I think is needed. Maybe a severe overhauling to eliminate the incredible waste of time and money that occurs daily. But if you could fix all that waste, for the most part our government in comparison to the rest of the world isn't that horrible. I may have a different view by midnight as I am going to see Farenheit 9/11 this evening.
Just think...in some countries you would be executed for posing this question.
Just think...in some countries you would be executed for posing this question.
Grant
Administrator
But...
Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, just fix the flat tire!
Think of how to effect positive change to our existing government.
Vote for people that will make the changes that you see having a greater impact on our country. Don't just vote party lines. Get involved with your local govt. Visit with your local representitives. Your local Assembly person is a good start. Just dont start your meeting with "I'd like to abolish you and your job"!
Instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, just fix the flat tire!
Think of how to effect positive change to our existing government.
Vote for people that will make the changes that you see having a greater impact on our country. Don't just vote party lines. Get involved with your local govt. Visit with your local representitives. Your local Assembly person is a good start. Just dont start your meeting with "I'd like to abolish you and your job"!
Grant
Administrator
WOW! If you haven't seen F 9/11 you need to!
If only 10 percent of what Michael Moore brought to light is true, than we the American people should be ashamed of what we have let happen.
Quote from George W. Bush: "There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee -- that says, fool me once, shame on -- shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again." -- Hrm... did you follow that?
If only 10 percent of what Michael Moore brought to light is true, than we the American people should be ashamed of what we have let happen.
Quote from George W. Bush: "There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee -- that says, fool me once, shame on -- shame on you. Fool me -- you can't get fooled again." -- Hrm... did you follow that?
One Call Power
New member
Michael Moore Movie
Very disturbing wasn't it ? Of course everyone disputes it as a left wing tactic for the White House. But facts are facts. Do I believe all in the movie ? No. Did most make sense ? Yes.
If you have not seen this movie, you must. Regardless of your political view point. If your political agenda stands in front of your right and wrong agenda, you need to take a good look at yourself.
Very disturbing wasn't it ? Of course everyone disputes it as a left wing tactic for the White House. But facts are facts. Do I believe all in the movie ? No. Did most make sense ? Yes.
If you have not seen this movie, you must. Regardless of your political view point. If your political agenda stands in front of your right and wrong agenda, you need to take a good look at yourself.
Scott Stone
New member
How come Liberals say everyone has to see this movie? There are 59 documented Lies in the movie, that have been found to date. It is not the type of thing that i like to throw my time and money at.
And I would say that if you are going to allow your views to let you believe documented lies that you need to look at your self.
Grant
Administrator
I would like to know what the 59 documented lies are ( or where to see them). But like I said earlier, if 10 percent is true...
Most if not all world leaders have hidden agendas that are contrary to the good of the people they represent or rule. Democrats, republicans, extremists, liberals, communists, royal souvergns. Most politicians start out as lawyers that tells you a lot right there!
Most if not all world leaders have hidden agendas that are contrary to the good of the people they represent or rule. Democrats, republicans, extremists, liberals, communists, royal souvergns. Most politicians start out as lawyers that tells you a lot right there!
One Call Power
New member
George Bush
Honestly, for all you die hard Republicans....What has George W. Bush done for domestic policy in the last 4 years. As a matter of fact....What did his daddy do for domestic policy while he was in office. Basically with these two, domestic policy went by the way side. They let corporate influence determine their domestic policy which was do nothing.
If Iraq was not an immediate threat to the United States ? Why are we there ? Why did 900 plus family members have to loose their lives in a war that had no bearing on the safety of the United States ?
Do you know a Teacher ? Do you know that Bush lied about "NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND" ? Did you know that Bush vetoed adding 100,000 additional police officers to our safety. Do you know that we are more hated in the world today then ever before ?
Bottom line and all you die hard Republicans know it, Both Bush foriegn policy and domestic policy has failed.
We are in more danger today then ever before.
So when you go to the polls, and stand proud for George Bush....Remember, you are promoting harm to our soldiers, you are slapping our children in the face and I only hope you never need a police officer. Oh and last but not least, I hope you never have to travel to another country and if you do, I hope and pray you are never taken hostage....because of Bush arrogance
Disregard the spelling. As I am an advocate for spell check.
Honestly, for all you die hard Republicans....What has George W. Bush done for domestic policy in the last 4 years. As a matter of fact....What did his daddy do for domestic policy while he was in office. Basically with these two, domestic policy went by the way side. They let corporate influence determine their domestic policy which was do nothing.
If Iraq was not an immediate threat to the United States ? Why are we there ? Why did 900 plus family members have to loose their lives in a war that had no bearing on the safety of the United States ?
Do you know a Teacher ? Do you know that Bush lied about "NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND" ? Did you know that Bush vetoed adding 100,000 additional police officers to our safety. Do you know that we are more hated in the world today then ever before ?
Bottom line and all you die hard Republicans know it, Both Bush foriegn policy and domestic policy has failed.
We are in more danger today then ever before.
So when you go to the polls, and stand proud for George Bush....Remember, you are promoting harm to our soldiers, you are slapping our children in the face and I only hope you never need a police officer. Oh and last but not least, I hope you never have to travel to another country and if you do, I hope and pray you are never taken hostage....because of Bush arrogance
Disregard the spelling. As I am an advocate for spell check.
One Call Power
New member
And as for Scott Stone
I am not a liberal. I am the right vs. wrong party.
Do I believe in gay marriage ? Absolutly not.
Do I believe in a women should have a right to choose ? Absolutly
Do I believe in stem cell research ? Of course.
Do I believe in gun control ? No
Do I believe in having the best most up to date military ? Yes
Do I believe in being prepared for war ? Yes
This is just a few. So Mr. Scott Stone..... Does this make me a liberal ? Once again....A true Republican's only comeback is liberal, liberal, liberal.....
Oh and by the way, Scott....Please show us the 59 documented lies that you speak of. Proof is in the pudding. And apparently the Bush's dont like pudding.
I am not a liberal. I am the right vs. wrong party.
Do I believe in gay marriage ? Absolutly not.
Do I believe in a women should have a right to choose ? Absolutly
Do I believe in stem cell research ? Of course.
Do I believe in gun control ? No
Do I believe in having the best most up to date military ? Yes
Do I believe in being prepared for war ? Yes
This is just a few. So Mr. Scott Stone..... Does this make me a liberal ? Once again....A true Republican's only comeback is liberal, liberal, liberal.....
Oh and by the way, Scott....Please show us the 59 documented lies that you speak of. Proof is in the pudding. And apparently the Bush's dont like pudding.
Justin
Member
Ouch...
Here is where I stand:
I don't believe we can pull out of Iraq at this point. I believe that Sadam's regime needed to be taken out and someone needed to pull the trigger on it.
We were attacked on 911 and hit hard. Thousands of people lost their lives in one single day in one attack. 900 over the course of a year on their turf isn't all that bad. Sure it hurts but if you take a look back into history, you'll see that when American blood is shed, we back out and go home. We never finish the job we started, we just come in, destroy, and leave.
Bush is in a tough position just like any president. Decisions he makes can affect an entire world and I personally wouldn't want that burden on my shoulders and neither would many of us. I don't agree with Bush all the time. There are a lot of things that have gone on to lead us to believe there's a lot of money involved and politics. However, Bush has shown us that he has a set of nuts and he's not afraid to use them. Bush has also stood fast in his belief that he did the right thing when we attacked Iraq. Saddam should have been long gone years ago. Hell, even to speek to our troops, they think we are doing the right thing over there... the ones I have talked to anyway.
The bottom line now is that we are at war. It's a religious war and a spiritual war but the fact is we are at war with a people that don't play by the rules. They keep beheading innocent people, they keep bombing innocent victims, and they keep the hatred alive for the free world. We can't abandon or turn our backs on our heritage of freedom. We can't lay down while they attack us and we can no longer turn the other cheek. We are there, we have to fight until the end and support our troops and our nation and our president.
I don't believe that a change in presidency at this point would help our country. My vote would be for Bush and will be for Bush, not because I agree with everything he does but because I agree that a change right now in the head of our nation could result in some very tough times. Also if we pull out of Iraq now, then we will just be attacked again.
They bit us on 911 and we bit back. Had Kerry been president at the time of the 911 attacks.... well he wasn't and I'm glad that we had a president that was willing to over-step the United Nations and make a decision that he thought was best for his country and his people. That takes large set of balls and for that I respect the man.
In your beliefs you said that you believe we should have the most up to date military. You also said that you believe we should be prepaired for war. What about actually doing it though? What's the point in having a great military force if we're not willing to fight for what we believe in? What's the point in being a nation that's proud, compassionate, giving, and free... if we aren't willing to stand tall and put a stop to those nations that are trying to oppress us?
My vote for Bush is based on the theory that at this point, I believe the above and I also believe that he is the lessor of the two evils.
Again, we were attacked on 911 and thousands of people were killed and even more families were hurt and injured and the effect of that attack on the world trade center rippled accross the entire world. We didn't lay down. We didn't turn the other cheek. We acted fast and steadfast and with very little time and other targets possibly being planned, Bush had to act and act fast and he did. The weight of the world was on his shoulders.
Think about it, we could still be in debates on who to attack and Saddam could still be in power and we could still be waiting on the United Nations and all the other political crap that goes on. We could have also lost alot more than 900 cosidering they can and will kill thousands of us at any give moment.
I feel we're doing the right thing. I feel that our presidedent was and has been under alot of pressure and I feel that I'm going to support whatever movement necessary in taking down these militant Muslim groups that behead people and try to oppress and bring down this great Nation that I live in.
Here is where I stand:
I don't believe we can pull out of Iraq at this point. I believe that Sadam's regime needed to be taken out and someone needed to pull the trigger on it.
We were attacked on 911 and hit hard. Thousands of people lost their lives in one single day in one attack. 900 over the course of a year on their turf isn't all that bad. Sure it hurts but if you take a look back into history, you'll see that when American blood is shed, we back out and go home. We never finish the job we started, we just come in, destroy, and leave.
Bush is in a tough position just like any president. Decisions he makes can affect an entire world and I personally wouldn't want that burden on my shoulders and neither would many of us. I don't agree with Bush all the time. There are a lot of things that have gone on to lead us to believe there's a lot of money involved and politics. However, Bush has shown us that he has a set of nuts and he's not afraid to use them. Bush has also stood fast in his belief that he did the right thing when we attacked Iraq. Saddam should have been long gone years ago. Hell, even to speek to our troops, they think we are doing the right thing over there... the ones I have talked to anyway.
The bottom line now is that we are at war. It's a religious war and a spiritual war but the fact is we are at war with a people that don't play by the rules. They keep beheading innocent people, they keep bombing innocent victims, and they keep the hatred alive for the free world. We can't abandon or turn our backs on our heritage of freedom. We can't lay down while they attack us and we can no longer turn the other cheek. We are there, we have to fight until the end and support our troops and our nation and our president.
I don't believe that a change in presidency at this point would help our country. My vote would be for Bush and will be for Bush, not because I agree with everything he does but because I agree that a change right now in the head of our nation could result in some very tough times. Also if we pull out of Iraq now, then we will just be attacked again.
They bit us on 911 and we bit back. Had Kerry been president at the time of the 911 attacks.... well he wasn't and I'm glad that we had a president that was willing to over-step the United Nations and make a decision that he thought was best for his country and his people. That takes large set of balls and for that I respect the man.
In your beliefs you said that you believe we should have the most up to date military. You also said that you believe we should be prepaired for war. What about actually doing it though? What's the point in having a great military force if we're not willing to fight for what we believe in? What's the point in being a nation that's proud, compassionate, giving, and free... if we aren't willing to stand tall and put a stop to those nations that are trying to oppress us?
My vote for Bush is based on the theory that at this point, I believe the above and I also believe that he is the lessor of the two evils.
Again, we were attacked on 911 and thousands of people were killed and even more families were hurt and injured and the effect of that attack on the world trade center rippled accross the entire world. We didn't lay down. We didn't turn the other cheek. We acted fast and steadfast and with very little time and other targets possibly being planned, Bush had to act and act fast and he did. The weight of the world was on his shoulders.
Think about it, we could still be in debates on who to attack and Saddam could still be in power and we could still be waiting on the United Nations and all the other political crap that goes on. We could have also lost alot more than 900 cosidering they can and will kill thousands of us at any give moment.
I feel we're doing the right thing. I feel that our presidedent was and has been under alot of pressure and I feel that I'm going to support whatever movement necessary in taking down these militant Muslim groups that behead people and try to oppress and bring down this great Nation that I live in.
Justin
Member
also, I don't want to get into a big political argument with anyone. It makes no sense. Instances, semantics and all that other crap can be argued all day and it does none of us any good. The above post is just my opinion. If you don't like it then I hope we can all agree to have disagreements and continue to live as one Nation Under God for Liberty and Justice for ALL!
Squirtgun
New member
Well put Justin.
A vote for Kerry in Nov. is a vote to put a target on America.Kerry doesn't have the testicular fortitude to stand up to terrorist,and the terrorist know it.With Kerry in office terror will strike on our soil again.They know Bush will hunt them down and make them pay for their acts.
I saw this posted on another BBS and I think anyone who believes that Kerry won't cause great harm to our nation should read it.He has already turned his back on the USA once,why would we let him do it again?
Whether you like or dislike Bush or Kerry, this is worth reading.
Regardless of your political affiliations, many have been incensed at the accusations that John Kerry made about the conduct of those he said he served with in Viet Nam when he testified before the Senate many years ago. Those men who served with him are now finally speaking out. Comments below.
Subject: FW: John Kerry's shipmates speak out
"While in Cam Rahn Bay, he trained on several 24-hour indoctrination missions, and one special skimmer operation with my most senior and trusted Lieutenant. The briefing from some members of that crew the morning after revealed that they had not received any enemy fire, and yet Lt.(jg) Kerry informed me of a wound -- he showed me a scratch on his arm and a piece of shrapnel in his hand that appeared to be from one of our own M-79s. It was later reported to me that Lt.(jg) Kerry had fired an M-79, and it had exploded off the adjacent shoreline. I do not recall being advised of any medical treatment, and probably said something like 'Forget it.' He later received a Purple Heart for that scratch, and I have no information as to how or whom.
Lt.(jg) Kerry was allowed to return to the good old USA after 4 months and a few days in-country, and then he proceeded to betray his former shipmates, calling them criminals who were committing atrocities. Today we are here to tell you that just the opposite is true. Our rules of engagement were quite strict, and the officers and men of Swift often did not even return fire when they were under fire if there was a possibility that innocent people -- fishermen, in a lot of cases -- might be hurt or injured. The rules and the good intentions of the men increased the possibility that we might take friendly casualties."
-- Commander Grant Hibbard, USN (retired) .
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"We resent very deeply the false war crimes charges he made coming back from Vietnam in 1971 and repeated in the book "Tour of Duty." We think those cast an aspersion on all those living and dead, from our unit and other units in Vietnam. We think that he knew he was lying when he made the charges, and we think that they're unsupportable. We intend to bring the truth about that to the American people.
We believe, based on our experience with him, that he is totally unfit to be the Commander-in-Chief."
-- John O'Neill, spokesman, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth .
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"I do not believe John Kerry is fit to be Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces of the United States. This is not a political issue. It is a matter of his judgment, truthfulness, reliability, loyalty and trust -- all absolute tenets of command. His biography, 'Tour of Duty,' by Douglas Brinkley, is replete with gross exaggerations, distortions of fact, contradictions and slanderous lies. His contempt for the military and authority is evident by even a most casual review of this biography. He arrived in-country with a strong anti-Vietnam War bias and a self-serving determination to build a foundation for his political future. He was aggressive, but vain and prone to impulsive judgment, often with disregard for specific tactical assignments. He was a 'loose cannon.' In an abbreviated tour of four months and 12 days, and with his specious medals secure, Lt.(jg) Kerry bugged out and began his infamous betrayal of all United States forces in the! ! Vietnam War. That included our soldiers, our marines, our sailors, our coast guardsmen, our airmen, and our POWs. His leadership within the so-called Vietnam Veterans Against the War and testimony before Congress in 1971 charging us with unspeakable atrocities remain an undocumented but nevertheless meticulous stain on the men and women who honorably stayed the course. Senator Kerry is not fit for command."
-- Rear Admiral Roy Hoffman, USN (retired), chairman, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth .
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"During Lt.(jg) Kerry's tour, he was under my command for two or three specific operations, before his rapid exit. Trust, loyalty and judgment are the key, operative words. His turncoat performance in 1971 in his grubby shirt and his medal-tossing escapade, coupled with his slanderous lines in the recent book portraying us that served, including all POWs and MIAs, as murderous war criminals, I believe, will have a lasting effect on all military veterans and their families.
Kerry would be described as devious, self-absorbing, manipulative, disdain for authority, disruptive, but the most common phrase that you'd hear is 'requires constant supervision.'"
-- Captain Charles Plumly, USN (retired) .
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"Thirty-five years ago, many of us fell silent when we came back to the stain of sewage that Mr. Kerry had thrown on us, and all of our colleagues who served over there. I don't intend to be silent today or ever again. Our young men and women who are serving deserve no less."
-- Andrew Horne .
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"In my specific, personal experience in both coastal and river patrols over a 12-month period, I never once saw or heard anything remotely resembling the atrocities described by Senator Kerry. If I had, it would have been my obligation to report them in writing to a higher authority, and I would certainly have done that. If Senator Kerry actually witnessed or participated in these atrocities or, as he described them, 'war crimes,' he was obligated to report them. That he did not until later when it suited his political purposes strikes me as opportunism of the worst kind. That he would malign my service and that of his fellow sailors with no regard for the truth makes him totally unqualified to serve as Commander-in-Chief."
-- Jeffrey Wainscott .
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"I signed that letter because I, too felt a deep sense of betrayal that someone who took the same oath of loyalty as I did as an officer in the United States Navy would abandon his group here (points to group photo) to join this group here (points to VVAW protest photo), and come home and attempt to rally the American public against the effort that this group was so valiantly pursuing.
It is a fact that in the entire Vietnam War we did not lose one major battle. We lost the war at home ... and at home, John Kerry was the Field General."
-- Robert Elder .
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"My daughters and my wife have read portions of the book 'Tour of Duty.' They wanted to know if I took part in the atrocities described. I do not believe the things that are described happened.
Let me give you an example. In Brinkley's book, on pages 170 to 171, about something called the 'Bo De massacre' on November 24th of 1968... In Kerry's description of the engagement, first he claimed there were 17 servicemen that were wounded. Three of us were wounded. I was the first..."
-- Joseph Ponder .
************************************************** *****
"Lt. Kerry returned home from the war to make some outrageous statements and allegations... of numerous criminal acts in violation of the law of war were cited by Kerry, disparaging those who had fought with honor in that conflict. Had war crimes been committed by US forces in Vietnam? Yes, but such acts were few and far between. Yet Lt. Kerry have numerous speeches and testimony before Congress inappropriately leading his audiences to believe that what was only an anomaly in the conduct of America's fighting men was an epidemic. Furthermore, he suggested that they were being encouraged to violated the law of war by those within the chain of command.
Very specific orders, on file at the Vietnam archives at Texas Tech University, were issued by my father [Admiral Elmo Zumwalt] and others in his chain of command instructing subordinates to act responsibly in preserving the life and property of Vietnamese civilians."
-- Lt. Col. James Zumwalt, USMC (retired) .
************************************************** *****
"We look at Vietnam... after all these years it is still languishing in isolated poverty and helplessness and tyranny. This is John Kerry's legacy. I deeply resent John Kerry's using his Swift boat experience, and his betrayal of those who fought there as a stepping-stone to his political ambitions."
-- Barnard Wolff .
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"In a whole year that I spent patrolling, I didn't see anything like a war crime, an atrocity, anything like that. Time and again I saw American fighting men put themselves in graver danger trying to avoid... collateral damage.
When John Kerry returned to the country, he was sworn in front of Congress. And then he told my family -- my parents, my sister, my brother, my neighbors -- he told everyone I knew and everyone I'd ever know that I and my comrades had committed unspeakable atrocities."
-- David Wallace .
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"I served with these guys. I went on missions with them, and these men served honorably. Up and down the chain of command there was no acquiescence to atrocities. It was not condoned, it did not happen, and it was not reported to me verbally or in writing by any of these men including Lt.(jg) Kerry.
In 1971, '72, for almost 18 months, he stood before the television audiences and claimed that the 500,000 men and women in Vietnam, and in combat, were all villains -- there were no heroes. In 2004, one hero from the Vietnam War has appeared, running for President of the United States and Commander-in-Chief. It just galls one to think about it."
-- Captain George Elliott, USN (retired) .
************************************************** *****
"During the Vietnam War I was Task Force Commander at An Thoi, and my tour of duty was 13 months, from the end of Tet to the beginning of the Vietnamization of the Navy units.
Now when I went there right after Tet, I was restricted in my movements. I couldn't go much of anyplace because the Vietcong controlled most of the area. When I left, I could go anywhere I wanted, just about. Commerce was booming, the buses were running, trucks were going, the waterways were filled with sampans with goods going to market, but yet in Kerry's biography he says that our operations were a complete failure. He also mentions a formal conference with me, to try to get more air cover and so on. That conference never happened..."
-- Captain Adrian Lonsdale, USCG (retired).
************************************************** *****
"I was in An Thoi from June of '68 to June of '69, covering the whole period that John Kerry was there. I operated in every river, in every canal, and every off-shore patrol area in the 4th Corps area, from Cambodia all the way around to the Bo De River. I never saw, even heard of all of these so-called atrocities and things that we were supposed to have done.
This is not true. We're not standing for it. We want to set the record straight."
-- William Shumadine.
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"In 1971, when John Kerry spoke out to America, labeling all Vietnam veterans as thugs and murderers, I was shocked and almost brought to my knees, because even though I had served at the same time and same unit, I had never witnessed or participated in any of the events that the Senator had accused us of. I strongly believe that the statements made by the Senator were not only false and inaccurate, but extremely harmful to the United States' efforts in Southeast Asia and the rest of the world. Tragically, some veterans, scorned by the antiwar movement and their allies, retreated to a life of despair and suicide. Two of my crewmates were among them. For that there is no forgiveness. "
-- Richard O'Meara .
************************************************** *****
"My name is Steve Gardner. I served in 1966 and 1967 on my first tour of duty in Vietnam on Swift boats, and I did my second tour in '68 and '69, involved with John Kerry in the last 2 1/2 months of my tour. The John Kerry that I know is not the John Kerry that everybody else is portraying. I served alongside him and behind him, five feet away from him in a gun tub, and watched as he made indecisive moves with our boat, put our boats in jeopardy, put our crews in jeopardy... if a man like that can't handle that 6-man crew boat, how can you expect him to be our Commander-in-Chief?"
-- Steven Gardner .
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"I served in Vietnam as a boat officer from June of 1968 to July of 1969. My service was three months in Coastal Division 13 out of Cat Lo, and nine months with Coastal Division 11 based in An Thoi. John Kerry was in An Thoi the same time I was. I'm here today to express the anger I have harbored for over 33 years, about being accused with my fellow shipmates of war atrocities.
All I can say is when I leave here today, I'm going down to the Wall to tell my two crew members it's not true, and that they and the other 49 Swiftees who are on the Wall were then and are still now the best."
-- Robert Brant .
************************************************** *****
"I never saw, heard of, or participated in any Swift boat crews killing cattle, poisoning crops, or raping and killing civilians as charged by John Kerry, both in his book and in public statements. Since we both operated at the same time, in the same general area, and on the same missions under the same commanders, it is hard to believe his claims of atrocities and poor planning of Sea Lord missions.
I signed this letter because I feel that he used Swift boat sailors to proclaim his antiwar statements after the war, and now he uses the same Swift boat sailors to support his claims of being a war hero. He cannot have it both ways, and we are here to ask for full disclosure of the proof of his claims."
-- James Steffes
A vote for Kerry in Nov. is a vote to put a target on America.Kerry doesn't have the testicular fortitude to stand up to terrorist,and the terrorist know it.With Kerry in office terror will strike on our soil again.They know Bush will hunt them down and make them pay for their acts.
I saw this posted on another BBS and I think anyone who believes that Kerry won't cause great harm to our nation should read it.He has already turned his back on the USA once,why would we let him do it again?
Whether you like or dislike Bush or Kerry, this is worth reading.
Regardless of your political affiliations, many have been incensed at the accusations that John Kerry made about the conduct of those he said he served with in Viet Nam when he testified before the Senate many years ago. Those men who served with him are now finally speaking out. Comments below.
Subject: FW: John Kerry's shipmates speak out
"While in Cam Rahn Bay, he trained on several 24-hour indoctrination missions, and one special skimmer operation with my most senior and trusted Lieutenant. The briefing from some members of that crew the morning after revealed that they had not received any enemy fire, and yet Lt.(jg) Kerry informed me of a wound -- he showed me a scratch on his arm and a piece of shrapnel in his hand that appeared to be from one of our own M-79s. It was later reported to me that Lt.(jg) Kerry had fired an M-79, and it had exploded off the adjacent shoreline. I do not recall being advised of any medical treatment, and probably said something like 'Forget it.' He later received a Purple Heart for that scratch, and I have no information as to how or whom.
Lt.(jg) Kerry was allowed to return to the good old USA after 4 months and a few days in-country, and then he proceeded to betray his former shipmates, calling them criminals who were committing atrocities. Today we are here to tell you that just the opposite is true. Our rules of engagement were quite strict, and the officers and men of Swift often did not even return fire when they were under fire if there was a possibility that innocent people -- fishermen, in a lot of cases -- might be hurt or injured. The rules and the good intentions of the men increased the possibility that we might take friendly casualties."
-- Commander Grant Hibbard, USN (retired) .
************************************************** *****
"We resent very deeply the false war crimes charges he made coming back from Vietnam in 1971 and repeated in the book "Tour of Duty." We think those cast an aspersion on all those living and dead, from our unit and other units in Vietnam. We think that he knew he was lying when he made the charges, and we think that they're unsupportable. We intend to bring the truth about that to the American people.
We believe, based on our experience with him, that he is totally unfit to be the Commander-in-Chief."
-- John O'Neill, spokesman, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth .
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"I do not believe John Kerry is fit to be Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces of the United States. This is not a political issue. It is a matter of his judgment, truthfulness, reliability, loyalty and trust -- all absolute tenets of command. His biography, 'Tour of Duty,' by Douglas Brinkley, is replete with gross exaggerations, distortions of fact, contradictions and slanderous lies. His contempt for the military and authority is evident by even a most casual review of this biography. He arrived in-country with a strong anti-Vietnam War bias and a self-serving determination to build a foundation for his political future. He was aggressive, but vain and prone to impulsive judgment, often with disregard for specific tactical assignments. He was a 'loose cannon.' In an abbreviated tour of four months and 12 days, and with his specious medals secure, Lt.(jg) Kerry bugged out and began his infamous betrayal of all United States forces in the! ! Vietnam War. That included our soldiers, our marines, our sailors, our coast guardsmen, our airmen, and our POWs. His leadership within the so-called Vietnam Veterans Against the War and testimony before Congress in 1971 charging us with unspeakable atrocities remain an undocumented but nevertheless meticulous stain on the men and women who honorably stayed the course. Senator Kerry is not fit for command."
-- Rear Admiral Roy Hoffman, USN (retired), chairman, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth .
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"During Lt.(jg) Kerry's tour, he was under my command for two or three specific operations, before his rapid exit. Trust, loyalty and judgment are the key, operative words. His turncoat performance in 1971 in his grubby shirt and his medal-tossing escapade, coupled with his slanderous lines in the recent book portraying us that served, including all POWs and MIAs, as murderous war criminals, I believe, will have a lasting effect on all military veterans and their families.
Kerry would be described as devious, self-absorbing, manipulative, disdain for authority, disruptive, but the most common phrase that you'd hear is 'requires constant supervision.'"
-- Captain Charles Plumly, USN (retired) .
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"Thirty-five years ago, many of us fell silent when we came back to the stain of sewage that Mr. Kerry had thrown on us, and all of our colleagues who served over there. I don't intend to be silent today or ever again. Our young men and women who are serving deserve no less."
-- Andrew Horne .
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"In my specific, personal experience in both coastal and river patrols over a 12-month period, I never once saw or heard anything remotely resembling the atrocities described by Senator Kerry. If I had, it would have been my obligation to report them in writing to a higher authority, and I would certainly have done that. If Senator Kerry actually witnessed or participated in these atrocities or, as he described them, 'war crimes,' he was obligated to report them. That he did not until later when it suited his political purposes strikes me as opportunism of the worst kind. That he would malign my service and that of his fellow sailors with no regard for the truth makes him totally unqualified to serve as Commander-in-Chief."
-- Jeffrey Wainscott .
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"I signed that letter because I, too felt a deep sense of betrayal that someone who took the same oath of loyalty as I did as an officer in the United States Navy would abandon his group here (points to group photo) to join this group here (points to VVAW protest photo), and come home and attempt to rally the American public against the effort that this group was so valiantly pursuing.
It is a fact that in the entire Vietnam War we did not lose one major battle. We lost the war at home ... and at home, John Kerry was the Field General."
-- Robert Elder .
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"My daughters and my wife have read portions of the book 'Tour of Duty.' They wanted to know if I took part in the atrocities described. I do not believe the things that are described happened.
Let me give you an example. In Brinkley's book, on pages 170 to 171, about something called the 'Bo De massacre' on November 24th of 1968... In Kerry's description of the engagement, first he claimed there were 17 servicemen that were wounded. Three of us were wounded. I was the first..."
-- Joseph Ponder .
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"Lt. Kerry returned home from the war to make some outrageous statements and allegations... of numerous criminal acts in violation of the law of war were cited by Kerry, disparaging those who had fought with honor in that conflict. Had war crimes been committed by US forces in Vietnam? Yes, but such acts were few and far between. Yet Lt. Kerry have numerous speeches and testimony before Congress inappropriately leading his audiences to believe that what was only an anomaly in the conduct of America's fighting men was an epidemic. Furthermore, he suggested that they were being encouraged to violated the law of war by those within the chain of command.
Very specific orders, on file at the Vietnam archives at Texas Tech University, were issued by my father [Admiral Elmo Zumwalt] and others in his chain of command instructing subordinates to act responsibly in preserving the life and property of Vietnamese civilians."
-- Lt. Col. James Zumwalt, USMC (retired) .
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"We look at Vietnam... after all these years it is still languishing in isolated poverty and helplessness and tyranny. This is John Kerry's legacy. I deeply resent John Kerry's using his Swift boat experience, and his betrayal of those who fought there as a stepping-stone to his political ambitions."
-- Barnard Wolff .
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"In a whole year that I spent patrolling, I didn't see anything like a war crime, an atrocity, anything like that. Time and again I saw American fighting men put themselves in graver danger trying to avoid... collateral damage.
When John Kerry returned to the country, he was sworn in front of Congress. And then he told my family -- my parents, my sister, my brother, my neighbors -- he told everyone I knew and everyone I'd ever know that I and my comrades had committed unspeakable atrocities."
-- David Wallace .
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"I served with these guys. I went on missions with them, and these men served honorably. Up and down the chain of command there was no acquiescence to atrocities. It was not condoned, it did not happen, and it was not reported to me verbally or in writing by any of these men including Lt.(jg) Kerry.
In 1971, '72, for almost 18 months, he stood before the television audiences and claimed that the 500,000 men and women in Vietnam, and in combat, were all villains -- there were no heroes. In 2004, one hero from the Vietnam War has appeared, running for President of the United States and Commander-in-Chief. It just galls one to think about it."
-- Captain George Elliott, USN (retired) .
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"During the Vietnam War I was Task Force Commander at An Thoi, and my tour of duty was 13 months, from the end of Tet to the beginning of the Vietnamization of the Navy units.
Now when I went there right after Tet, I was restricted in my movements. I couldn't go much of anyplace because the Vietcong controlled most of the area. When I left, I could go anywhere I wanted, just about. Commerce was booming, the buses were running, trucks were going, the waterways were filled with sampans with goods going to market, but yet in Kerry's biography he says that our operations were a complete failure. He also mentions a formal conference with me, to try to get more air cover and so on. That conference never happened..."
-- Captain Adrian Lonsdale, USCG (retired).
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"I was in An Thoi from June of '68 to June of '69, covering the whole period that John Kerry was there. I operated in every river, in every canal, and every off-shore patrol area in the 4th Corps area, from Cambodia all the way around to the Bo De River. I never saw, even heard of all of these so-called atrocities and things that we were supposed to have done.
This is not true. We're not standing for it. We want to set the record straight."
-- William Shumadine.
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"In 1971, when John Kerry spoke out to America, labeling all Vietnam veterans as thugs and murderers, I was shocked and almost brought to my knees, because even though I had served at the same time and same unit, I had never witnessed or participated in any of the events that the Senator had accused us of. I strongly believe that the statements made by the Senator were not only false and inaccurate, but extremely harmful to the United States' efforts in Southeast Asia and the rest of the world. Tragically, some veterans, scorned by the antiwar movement and their allies, retreated to a life of despair and suicide. Two of my crewmates were among them. For that there is no forgiveness. "
-- Richard O'Meara .
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"My name is Steve Gardner. I served in 1966 and 1967 on my first tour of duty in Vietnam on Swift boats, and I did my second tour in '68 and '69, involved with John Kerry in the last 2 1/2 months of my tour. The John Kerry that I know is not the John Kerry that everybody else is portraying. I served alongside him and behind him, five feet away from him in a gun tub, and watched as he made indecisive moves with our boat, put our boats in jeopardy, put our crews in jeopardy... if a man like that can't handle that 6-man crew boat, how can you expect him to be our Commander-in-Chief?"
-- Steven Gardner .
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"I served in Vietnam as a boat officer from June of 1968 to July of 1969. My service was three months in Coastal Division 13 out of Cat Lo, and nine months with Coastal Division 11 based in An Thoi. John Kerry was in An Thoi the same time I was. I'm here today to express the anger I have harbored for over 33 years, about being accused with my fellow shipmates of war atrocities.
All I can say is when I leave here today, I'm going down to the Wall to tell my two crew members it's not true, and that they and the other 49 Swiftees who are on the Wall were then and are still now the best."
-- Robert Brant .
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"I never saw, heard of, or participated in any Swift boat crews killing cattle, poisoning crops, or raping and killing civilians as charged by John Kerry, both in his book and in public statements. Since we both operated at the same time, in the same general area, and on the same missions under the same commanders, it is hard to believe his claims of atrocities and poor planning of Sea Lord missions.
I signed this letter because I feel that he used Swift boat sailors to proclaim his antiwar statements after the war, and now he uses the same Swift boat sailors to support his claims of being a war hero. He cannot have it both ways, and we are here to ask for full disclosure of the proof of his claims."
-- James Steffes
One Call Power
New member
If any were true.....
Dont you think that if any of this were true, we all would have heard about this prior to this post....Come on, you can do better than that dont you think.
Dont you think that if any of this were true, we all would have heard about this prior to this post....Come on, you can do better than that dont you think.
Squirtgun
New member
One Call,
This is all a matter of public record.I feel if you are going to throw stones throw them at both candidates,because neither is the best for the job.I feel like Justin does..Bush is the lesser of 2 evils.I'm not looking to be drug into political debate.....because my honest opinion if politicians is very low.
This is all a matter of public record.I feel if you are going to throw stones throw them at both candidates,because neither is the best for the job.I feel like Justin does..Bush is the lesser of 2 evils.I'm not looking to be drug into political debate.....because my honest opinion if politicians is very low.
Justin
Member
Grant, I'm also not looking for a drawn out political argument. I don't know what the intelligence knew, I don't know who did what or where osama was, or from what country they are all from or what country is harboring these terrorists.... All I know is that we're at war now. To sit here and assume or argue about things we really don't know about or fully understand is a waste of time and it's in the past. Today we are at war and tomorrow we have to vote for a presidential candidate to lead us in the war. Kerry isn't America's answer. Bush may not be either but again, he's the lesser of the two evils.
What we've begun, we cannot undue. We can't leave, we can't surrender to terrorism, we can't allow them to win, and we can't change what's happened already. All we can do is decide on who we believe will do thier best to defend our country and our flag and lead our troops as Commander in Chief. Kerry isn't he.
What we've begun, we cannot undue. We can't leave, we can't surrender to terrorism, we can't allow them to win, and we can't change what's happened already. All we can do is decide on who we believe will do thier best to defend our country and our flag and lead our troops as Commander in Chief. Kerry isn't he.
Grant
Administrator
Technically, according to "W" we are no longer at war. The campaign ended over a year ago. We are there now to stabilize the rebuilding effort.
I dont like political or religious arguements either, they are unproductive and rarely does someone change thier mind. Kerry or Bush, who knows maybe Nader could do a better job.
I dont like political or religious arguements either, they are unproductive and rarely does someone change thier mind. Kerry or Bush, who knows maybe Nader could do a better job.