PWNA - BMPs: What they are and what they are not. A letter from Mike Hilborn, E.D.

Mike Hilborn 4/4/2011 (three years ago)

Let me tell you what the BMPs are not (based on some of the points I read on the bulletin boards):
· The PWNA is not going to bring, or shop, the BMPs to municipalities, city

leaders or roll them out across the country. That was never mentioned as our

plan and I don't know where that came from. Second, we don't have the

money or resources for such an undertaking.

My response same day:

You won't have to shop the BMP's to local governments, they will find your website and adopt your BMP's just like they've done on the KEC side. (along with a little promotion)


Ron's response same day:

By far over the last three Year National Cleaning Expo has had regulators and Law makers speaking at events educating the industry about these issues. Advancements with these muni's have come further in the recent years than the last 20. Moving backwards is something I will not do, if the PWNA wants to showcase a program for a revenue stream of helping associate members sell vaccums I'm not ok with this.

Jeff LeCours:

The problem I see is like Tony said. You have these BMP's on your website and municipalities could and probably will see them. They may search out a pressure washing Org and PWNA & the BMP's will show up.

William Page:

It does not take a lot to see the harm that is going to be done by the PWNA if they have this BMP on file or on the net.


The warnings were there three years ago.

No one from the PWNA stood up and stopped this.

They lied to us from the beginning. Asked for our input and summarily dismissed it.


Here's the million dollar question.......in light of this statement by Mike H: Second, we don't have the

money or resources for such an undertaking. I'd like to ask where the resources came from in three years?

I have an idea. They came from YOU. If you are a contractor who keeps paying PWNA dues.
 
Mike called me after this and we talked and he promised me that the bmp's would not ever be shopped, saying that as the president of the pwna.

We all see how it turned out, people who own organizations will do what they want no matter who is in charge or what that person in charge says or promises.
 
I was on the environmental board for the PWNA when the BMP's were rolled out. I had been invited by Michael Hinderliter to take an active role in writing them. I never missed a meeting I was notified of. I was on a conference call, a lot of grand plans were made, and the months went by, and I was notified of another conference call, and the BMP's were rolled out. When I complained loudly, I was told that I did not understand how these things worked, and to just not worry about it. In the second conference call, I asked a question, and one of the two people that wrote the BMP's asked me who I thought I was to question them. It is all a little rusty because I have had a few things happen in the past few years, but it boils down to, I swore off the PWNA from the time I hung up in the middle of that conference call. I saw the direction it was going, the agenda that was being pushed, and felt that it was not something that I could even give a semblance of supporting.
 
Scott Stone said:
I was on the environmental board for the PWNA when the BMP's were rolled out. I had been invited by Michael Hinderliter to take an active role in writing them. I never missed a meeting I was notified of. I was on a conference call, a lot of grand plans were made, and the months went by, and I was notified of another conference call, and the BMP's were rolled out. When I complained loudly, I was told that I did not understand how these things worked, and to just not worry about it. In the second conference call, I asked a question, and one of the two people that wrote the BMP's asked me who I thought I was to question them. It is all a little rusty because I have had a few things happen in the past few years, but it boils down to, I swore off the PWNA from the time I hung up in the middle of that conference call. I saw the direction it was going, the agenda that was being pushed, and felt that it was not something that I could even give a semblance of supporting.
Click to expand...

Guys, we're hearing that one the wisest, most trusted and respected men in this industry.
 
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I have been following some of this discussion. Personally, I'm a bit appalled by the lack of professionalism and downright lack of common courtesy displayed by my fellow associates in this industry. I understand that there will always be differing opinions, and opposing objectives in any industry; however, the lack of respect demonstrated on these boards is an embarrassment to us all. At the very least, the very few that have past personal issues with one another should keep it in the past and not cloud new issues and discussions with unfair and personal biases.

In my humble opinion, a lot of misinformation is presented on these boards. I would just ask that people give more consideration and possibly perform a little due diligence or research before posting opinion as fact.

BMPs are not law, they are not legislation, they are not regulations. They are simply recommendations and guidelines that are developed to assist people with compliance. BMP's can vary greatly from State to State, county to county, city to city and even company to company. They are made available to the pubic as a tool to conduct activities in the most responsible and compliant manner to protect our waterways. BMPs don't establish law or regulations, they are a developed in alignment with existing local, state and federal laws.

Ultimately, Best Management Practices are optional and the decision to follow them is up to each individual and each company. We have our own company BMP's for pressure washing. They are written in a manner to support our local, state and federal regulations. We use them to train our employees. We believe by following our company's BMP's, we are protecting our customers, our company and our waterways. Anything other than Rain in the Drain in our area results in a base fine of $10,000 for us AND our customer. Liability is greatly reduced by developing compliant BMPs for your company...where ever you are in the country. I would simply encourage all pressure washing contractors to be educated on your local regulations and develop procedures and processes to comply.
 
eubiev said:
I have been following some of this discussion. Personally, I'm a bit appalled by the lack of professionalism and downright lack of common courtesy displayed by my fellow associates in this industry. I understand that there will always be differing opinions, and opposing objectives in any industry; however, the lack of respect demonstrated on these boards is an embarrassment to us all. At the very least, the very few that have past personal issues with one another should keep it in the past and not cloud new issues and discussions with unfair and personal biases.

In my humble opinion, a lot of misinformation is presented on these boards. I would just ask that people give more consideration and possibly perform a little due diligence or research before posting opinion as fact.

BMPs are not law, they are not legislation, they are not regulations. They are simply recommendations and guidelines that are developed to assist people with compliance. BMP's can vary greatly from State to State, county to county, city to city and even company to company. They are made available to the pubic as a tool to conduct activities in the most responsible and compliant manner to protect our waterways. BMPs don't establish law or regulations, they are a developed in alignment with existing local, state and federal laws.

Ultimately, Best Management Practices are optional and the decision to follow them is up to each individual and each company. We have our own company BMP's for pressure washing. They are written in a manner to support our local, state and federal regulations. We use them to train our employees. We believe by following our company's BMP's, we are protecting our customers, our company and our waterways. Anything other than Rain in the Drain in our area results in a base fine of $10,000 for us AND our customer. Liability is greatly reduced by developing compliant BMPs for your company...where ever you are in the country. I would simply encourage all pressure washing contractors to be educated on your local regulations and develop procedures and processes to comply.
Click to expand...

Hello Hot Rod. How about a signature and in your case - not now, right now!
 
eubiev said:
I have been following some of this discussion. Personally, I'm a bit appalled by the lack of professionalism and downright lack of common courtesy displayed by my fellow associates in this industry. I understand that there will always be differing opinions, and opposing objectives in any industry; however, the lack of respect demonstrated on these boards is an embarrassment to us all. At the very least, the very few that have past personal issues with one another should keep it in the past and not cloud new issues and discussions with unfair and personal biases.

In my humble opinion, a lot of misinformation is presented on these boards. I would just ask that people give more consideration and possibly perform a little due diligence or research before posting opinion as fact.

BMPs are not law, they are not legislation, they are not regulations. They are simply recommendations and guidelines that are developed to assist people with compliance. BMP's can vary greatly from State to State, county to county, city to city and even company to company. They are made available to the pubic as a tool to conduct activities in the most responsible and compliant manner to protect our waterways. BMPs don't establish law or regulations, they are a developed in alignment with existing local, state and federal laws.

Ultimately, Best Management Practices are optional and the decision to follow them is up to each individual and each company. We have our own company BMP's for pressure washing. They are written in a manner to support our local, state and federal regulations. We use them to train our employees. We believe by following our company's BMP's, we are protecting our customers, our company and our waterways. Anything other than Rain in the Drain in our area results in a base fine of $10,000 for us AND our customer. Liability is greatly reduced by developing compliant BMPs for your company...where ever you are in the country. I would simply encourage all pressure washing contractors to be educated on your local regulations and develop procedures and processes to comply.
Click to expand...

Real simple question.....

List the misinformation given on this board.

Thank you.

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This sounds just like that weirdo that got banned here twice and was starting trouble over on the UAMCC forum several times.

This person needs to fill out their signature so we know who we are talking to.
 
I am curious as to how a lack of courtesy is embarrassing, yet lying to contractors and regulators alike is not even worth mentioning in such a long initial post.

With that said the rest of your post is an outstanding explanation of BMPs.

The problem we have is not that we don't want BMPs. Like you, most of us have our own company BMPs. The problem at issue here is that historically, BMPs that introduce previously unproven concepts like "hot water is the same as so@p" tend to work their way into regulations.

You are in a unique area. Regulations, as far as what I have found, leave you no option if the water leaves the property, but to pick it up and move it somewhere.

You might be interested to know that the Bay area in Northern California does not share that restriction.

What we are trying to do here is limit the spread of regulations that do nothing to improve water quality, but put undue burdens and potential legal traps for contractors.

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Didn't mean to leave out my signature...Vickie Eubanks, South Shore Building Services, Inc. And no, I don't believe I'm a weirdo :)

I just thought I'd add some clarification to the BMP discussion, for what ever its worth...
 
eubiev said:
Didn't mean to leave out my signature...Vickie Eubanks, South Shore Building Services, Inc. And no, I don't believe I'm a weirdo :)

I just thought I'd add some clarification to the BMP discussion, for what ever its worth...
Click to expand...

Apologize for The remarks, you have some folks that try to come in with false id.

The Bmp remarks are great, love to discuss them.

Does your city's you work in have a enforcement division? If who is it? Meaning the dept, you see often it's not Bmp. The interpretation of them often get screwed up.

Sounds like you have worked with Mr. Boon at oc in the past?

I want to say all here will respect whAt you have to ad, since your business is listed on these blogs from Robert an Pwna I would imagine you could shed some light as what happened to give the industry a poor interpretation of what was happening.

Second I would like to invite you to Palm Springs Monday for a roll out of some pretty cool equipment.

How did you find this bbs? I'm curious always.

Again welcome , please understand that only straight talk goes on here. Straight answers are expected to.

Have fun maybe will all learn something.


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I think the disconnect here is the PWNA BOD and any of their members who have come to rely on scare tactics to secure accounts have been conditioned to believe that anyone who doesn't follow the Hinderliter thought process is a lowball hack just itching to dump hazardous waste into the local bay.

This is a false assumption.

Looking at Ty's website it is commendable that he points out the advantages of using his company without overtly accusing other companies of being serial polluters.

What the PWNA seems unable to grasp is the fact that owning a bunch of reclaim equipment doesn't equate with being good stewards of our environment. Owning the equipment and having the knowledge of when and where it is necessary is far more responsible.

It seems to be the Prius effect. Studies have shown that the resources used to make and properly dispose of a Prius is more detrimental than driving a gasoline powered car. But try to tell that to someone who feels morally superior for driving one!

Our company has been attacked unsuccessfully for using water to clean air filters by some of the same intellectual geniuses. The attacks go nowhere when we prove that the water we use to clean a filter is LESS than the water it takes to manufacture the disposable filter we replace!

The same goes for cleaning surfaces. If we unnecessarily use reclaim equipment we are not being responsible, we are being reckless.

For example, if one is cleaning a shopping center sidewalk and it takes one hour we will most likely use about 360 gallons of water and one small engine. If we simply filter the debris and release the remaining clean water back to mother nature we have done our job responsibly. On the other hand if we force unnecessary reclaim in that situation we add the following:

1) a second small engine pumping PROVEN polutiom at the equivalent of 54 cars on the road per hr.
2) Unnecessary increased cost for the customer and artificially increased man/hrs to do the work. More running time and air pollution from the equipment.
3) more weight for the trucks increasing fuel consumption and the related emissions.
4) additional burdens on the POTW if dumped in the sewer and an additional and unnecessary 3000+ lbs of water on a trailer of water if transported of offsite. This is not sensible no matter how you look at it. If you think our industry has a bad name now just wait till someone is killed on the highway or the hazmat team had to be called for a spill that consists of plaza runoff one could almost drink. The resulting costs and news coverage could practically kill our industry when the kneejerk politicians inevitably enact laws to stop transport and name it after whatever child lost their life in the collision.

These could go on and on.

The fact is, picking up and moving water around is not always the most practicable or responsible thing to do. To claim so is based on ignorance of the facts or a selfish desire to artificially keep industry entry at a high cost to keep out competition. Competition is where advances in technology and service quality comes from. Those who worry about such things perform a disservice to our industry by inadvertantly discouraging advancement and betterment of the industry as a whole.

And let's not forget about the fake out effect. Those are the contractors who thrive off government regulations to keep down competition yet do things like drive around with broken reclaim equipment just so it looks like they are reclaiming. One such contractor here who proudly proclaimed his love for the environment cleaned a major box store chain for a year with the vacuum missing off the top of his reclaim unit. But all was well because "he had reclaim" when the "lowballers didn't. Another fearless leader in the "environmental" war was demanding that sludge be taken offsite and dumped in an employees yard because "they live out in the country and nobody will know". In my experience it seems the ones who scream the loudest about the need for regulations are the ones who have the least REAL concern for the environment.

And the old argument stating "we have made the investment in reclaim equipment" thereby insinuating that those who haven't are inferior and don't care about the environment is just more spin.

If Ron cares to share a video he made of city workers who spent $375k on reclaim equipment and the resulting "fake" that I was talking about he can share it here.

The disconnect between the UAMCC and the PWNA is that someone has used a false premise and is causing PWNA members to confuse real, substantive, effective and sensible stewardship with feel good minimal compliance with regulations that haven't been thought out very well or brought to their logical conclusions.

So when you hear of us meeting with regulators you can rest assured no one is fighting for the right to pollute. We are fighting for pollution prevention that actually works.


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I only dispute you keep using the word run off, I discharge nothing off property. I also reduce pollution an contaminates on permeable surfaces prior to a rain event. So if outfall does occur which not likely the pollution hazards to the ms 4 are reduced. Practice simple bmps, an I don't use kids swimming pools. I practice secondary containment if I'm in an outfall situation. Swimming pools don't qualify you.


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I want to say this , I would never turn in a fellow contractor for not complying. As that video above is a city that I personally have issues with washing in those few blocks, not with the city itself but customers who are being miss informed by contractor who are liars.


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Later I will release a interview of a contractor that will remain name less because I got permission from him to release the interview. When you see what he was doing with wash water you will be stunned.

We also know a contractor who asks his employees to dump waste in the forest. Again we will not release names as this is not the intentions to hurt these guys but maybe change there thought processes.

Think about this, if one Of these nuts gets caught we all pay.


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