How much for starting pressure washing position?
- Thread starter Ron Musgraves
- Start date
Tim,
If challanged, an 8 year non-compete agreement would not hold water in many courts. I would also say that they would find a 200 mile radius to be unreasonable for this type of business.
There are presedences where courts have negated contracts that were deemed unreasonable as they would keep someone from trying to earn a living.
Laws vary from state to state but they all follow a general guideline of reasonable expectations.
Did you know:
If an agreement is too restrictive, the courts can invalidate them entirely.
- Some states, such as California, do not recognize non-compete contracts.
- In many states, employers who lose an employee to a competitor in violation of a non-compete agreement can sue the new employer, as well as the old employee.
- Courts will not enforce non-compete agreements unless the employee gets what is termed “independent consideration” — in other words, if they get something in exchange for signing the agreement.
- In an employer/employee relationship, non-compete agreements of one or two years in length are considered valid, and longer time periods may be suspect.
- Non-compete agreement often must have reasonable geographic limits which are based on where a business would draw the majority of their business from.
If challanged, an 8 year non-compete agreement would not hold water in many courts. I would also say that they would find a 200 mile radius to be unreasonable for this type of business.
There are presedences where courts have negated contracts that were deemed unreasonable as they would keep someone from trying to earn a living.
Laws vary from state to state but they all follow a general guideline of reasonable expectations.
Did you know:
If an agreement is too restrictive, the courts can invalidate them entirely.
- Some states, such as California, do not recognize non-compete contracts.
- In many states, employers who lose an employee to a competitor in violation of a non-compete agreement can sue the new employer, as well as the old employee.
- Courts will not enforce non-compete agreements unless the employee gets what is termed “independent consideration” — in other words, if they get something in exchange for signing the agreement.
- In an employer/employee relationship, non-compete agreements of one or two years in length are considered valid, and longer time periods may be suspect.
- Non-compete agreement often must have reasonable geographic limits which are based on where a business would draw the majority of their business from.
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Paul B
Your exactly right. My attorney told me the exact thing. Its still a good thing to do. If a person decided to fight the agreement, I basically have a 50% chance of winning. With that said, I've had two different individuals (after I trained them and shared my secrets) quit me and start doing business themself. Both stop after my attorney sent them a letter attached to the sign agreement. Both stop doing pressure washing. If they would have decided to hire a lawyer and fight it - they would have about a 50% chance of winning. To be honest with you, If they would have hired lawyers, I would have dropped it. Yes I also have all employees sign a confidentiality clause as well.
I did fight and win in another case. I own a home inspection business and had an Inspector after 3yrs of training and paying for all his certifications, decided he wanted to make all the money and started his own business. After 9 months of litigation, I won and he ceased business. I had a lot of money invested (certifications and schools) in him & that help my case. He also had to pay my legal fees per the contract. My attorney gets $170.00 an hour.
Your exactly right. My attorney told me the exact thing. Its still a good thing to do. If a person decided to fight the agreement, I basically have a 50% chance of winning. With that said, I've had two different individuals (after I trained them and shared my secrets) quit me and start doing business themself. Both stop after my attorney sent them a letter attached to the sign agreement. Both stop doing pressure washing. If they would have decided to hire a lawyer and fight it - they would have about a 50% chance of winning. To be honest with you, If they would have hired lawyers, I would have dropped it. Yes I also have all employees sign a confidentiality clause as well.
I did fight and win in another case. I own a home inspection business and had an Inspector after 3yrs of training and paying for all his certifications, decided he wanted to make all the money and started his own business. After 9 months of litigation, I won and he ceased business. I had a lot of money invested (certifications and schools) in him & that help my case. He also had to pay my legal fees per the contract. My attorney gets $170.00 an hour.
I don't know the specific laws in your state, but you are defeating your purpose with a covenant that would most likely be considered too restrictive, and courts would invalidate it ENTIRELY. In otherwords, you would have a 0% chance of winning.
I'm curious why you wouldn't create a covenant that is considered legal in your state and one that you would have close to 100% chance of winning? If someone challenged you and you decided to drop it because you knew your agreement wouldn't stand the test in court, wouldn't that defeat your purpose of protecting your business?
Imagine, two SMARTER ex-employees (or employees with smart relatives/friends) could have a majority of your business.
A one year covenant and 30 mile radius would almost guarantee you 100% protection (in states that recognized non-compete covenants). A two year may even work based on circumstances.
You could even write a 1, 2 and 3 year covenant that would be tiered and based on the amount of training you have provided, along with the position your employee has. You could always change a 1 year covenant to a 2 year, after you promote someone or after major training, where you felt additional protection was necessary.
For example:
- A tech who's been with you for 6 months would have some of your technical know-how information but maybe not pricing, marketing info and a 1 year agreement is all that's needed.
- A sales person would have access to customer data, pricing, marketing strategies, etc. and a 2 year agreement there would provide you adequate REAL protection.
The real purpose of the Non-Compete Covenant is to protect your business - not just to try and intimidate ex-employees. It's kind of like telling customers you have liability insurance so you get the job, but not having one when something does happen.
I'm curious why you wouldn't create a covenant that is considered legal in your state and one that you would have close to 100% chance of winning? If someone challenged you and you decided to drop it because you knew your agreement wouldn't stand the test in court, wouldn't that defeat your purpose of protecting your business?
Imagine, two SMARTER ex-employees (or employees with smart relatives/friends) could have a majority of your business.
A one year covenant and 30 mile radius would almost guarantee you 100% protection (in states that recognized non-compete covenants). A two year may even work based on circumstances.
You could even write a 1, 2 and 3 year covenant that would be tiered and based on the amount of training you have provided, along with the position your employee has. You could always change a 1 year covenant to a 2 year, after you promote someone or after major training, where you felt additional protection was necessary.
For example:
- A tech who's been with you for 6 months would have some of your technical know-how information but maybe not pricing, marketing info and a 1 year agreement is all that's needed.
- A sales person would have access to customer data, pricing, marketing strategies, etc. and a 2 year agreement there would provide you adequate REAL protection.
The real purpose of the Non-Compete Covenant is to protect your business - not just to try and intimidate ex-employees. It's kind of like telling customers you have liability insurance so you get the job, but not having one when something does happen.
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Paul B
First of all, my purpose is not to intimidate ex-employees. How could you make that assumption out of what I written.
There is not a non-compete agreement that guarantees a 100% protection. My agreement was not something I just put togethor - my attorney drafted the agreement. Your right, you don't know the specific laws in my state, nor do I - thats why I pay an attorney $170.00 an hour - he knows the laws in my state.
AS of standing up in court - it did. Read my post again. The guy in my home inspection business (mention above) has a business in St. Louis now -- over 200 miles away.
What do you base your assumptions on it being too constrictive? Have you been to court to defend a "non-compete agreement"?
Have you had an attorney draft you an agreement?
I'm just trying to decide why you know more about my chances of winning in court than my attorney.
The one thing I take offense too - is you stating "The real purpose of the Non-Compete Covenant is to protect your business - not just to try and intimidate ex-employees". I don't intimadate my ex-employees, but I do protect my family and business.
The internet has made everybody experts..
First of all, my purpose is not to intimidate ex-employees. How could you make that assumption out of what I written.
There is not a non-compete agreement that guarantees a 100% protection. My agreement was not something I just put togethor - my attorney drafted the agreement. Your right, you don't know the specific laws in my state, nor do I - thats why I pay an attorney $170.00 an hour - he knows the laws in my state.
AS of standing up in court - it did. Read my post again. The guy in my home inspection business (mention above) has a business in St. Louis now -- over 200 miles away.
What do you base your assumptions on it being too constrictive? Have you been to court to defend a "non-compete agreement"?
Have you had an attorney draft you an agreement?
I'm just trying to decide why you know more about my chances of winning in court than my attorney.
The one thing I take offense too - is you stating "The real purpose of the Non-Compete Covenant is to protect your business - not just to try and intimidate ex-employees". I don't intimadate my ex-employees, but I do protect my family and business.
The internet has made everybody experts..
Tim,
Before I say anything else, I'll say that I did not mean to make you look bad, feel uncomfortable or sound like I know everything. Appearantly I did not convey my objectives properly.
My intent was to ask why you did certain things and to ensure that folks understand that what works for one does not automatically work for another.
I offer my humble apologies!
Lot of things are based on perceptions, be it real or not.
Be it intentional or not, to me this sounds intimidating:
So does this:
Again, my point was not to make you look bad or to imply that you on purpose intimidate your employees. My statements were in GENERAL, as many other people read these posts. I was hoping others would search their state laws and rely on legal resources rather than assuming that what works for one in one state will work for another in another state.
As a matter of fact, each covenant is required to be specific to the business at hand. The covenant for an inspection business will not be legal to a pressure washing business without changes and specifics.
For example:
If you have a pressure washing business that services decks,
your non-compete covenant would have to be specific and only apply to deck services. In otherwords, you couldn't keep a person from starting a house washing, concrete cleaning pressure washing business.
There are also specific covenants within the agreement that defines an ex-employee not to solicit customers of the ex-employers business for periods of time.
You can put anything in a contract but it may or may not be deemed acceptable to the courts. Lot of companies assume that individuals will not have adequate funding to fight these covenants in court and most laymen are not informed enough to know that just because it says it's a contract does not mean that it actually is binding the way it is written.
Personally:
- I would ask myself how would I feel if I was asked not to compete for 8 year with a company that I'm just starting to work for. I have never seen an 8 year restriction for an employer/employee covenant. I personally thought that 3 years was extremely long.
The courts will take into consideration training time spent on ex-employee and retraining time of new employee when determining time duration but also consider that the employer also benefitted from the ex-employee being trained.
I was fortunate that I knew ahead of time what I was signing was not enforceable. There are three areas where covenant tend to go beyond what is necessary to protect the "Business" adequately: the geographical area, the time period and the scope of the activity restrained.
I wonder how your court case would have worked out if you filed 3, 4 or 5 years after he left your business.
My point was intended to be that your state may have a "Blue Pencil" law that allows the courts to strike thru portions it does not deem to be appropriate and still apply other portions of the contract, where as other states may simpy void the entire covenant based on not accepting one specific part of it.
My statement was and still is a GENERAL statement that applies to everyone that may be reading this:
The real purpose of the Non-Compete Covenant is to protect your business - not just to try and intimidate ex-employees.
There are a lot of businesses that intimidate or try to intimidate employees. You may not consider yourself or your contracts intimidating but the perception may be there.
Unfortunately a lot of people are not inclined to do their own research but rely on other people's information and assume it to be correct.
The internet is only a starting point and when laws are concerned, each person is responsible for their legal actions in their own state. I personally use the internet along with information on the BB's, info from family, friends and acquaintences but use checks and balances to ensure I've got solid ground under my feet.
Again, I offer my humble apologies for making it sound like a personal attack rather than discussion of specific points!
Before I say anything else, I'll say that I did not mean to make you look bad, feel uncomfortable or sound like I know everything. Appearantly I did not convey my objectives properly.
My intent was to ask why you did certain things and to ensure that folks understand that what works for one does not automatically work for another.
I offer my humble apologies!
Lot of things are based on perceptions, be it real or not.
Be it intentional or not, to me this sounds intimidating:
So does this:
Again, my point was not to make you look bad or to imply that you on purpose intimidate your employees. My statements were in GENERAL, as many other people read these posts. I was hoping others would search their state laws and rely on legal resources rather than assuming that what works for one in one state will work for another in another state.
As a matter of fact, each covenant is required to be specific to the business at hand. The covenant for an inspection business will not be legal to a pressure washing business without changes and specifics.
For example:
If you have a pressure washing business that services decks,
your non-compete covenant would have to be specific and only apply to deck services. In otherwords, you couldn't keep a person from starting a house washing, concrete cleaning pressure washing business.
There are also specific covenants within the agreement that defines an ex-employee not to solicit customers of the ex-employers business for periods of time.
Legally - you can read many cases in law books where time constraints are discussed along with what would be construed as real protection for a business along with what is considered reasonable between the parties and also with respect to the public interest.
You can put anything in a contract but it may or may not be deemed acceptable to the courts. Lot of companies assume that individuals will not have adequate funding to fight these covenants in court and most laymen are not informed enough to know that just because it says it's a contract does not mean that it actually is binding the way it is written.
Personally:
- I would ask myself how would I feel if I was asked not to compete for 8 year with a company that I'm just starting to work for. I have never seen an 8 year restriction for an employer/employee covenant. I personally thought that 3 years was extremely long.
The courts will take into consideration training time spent on ex-employee and retraining time of new employee when determining time duration but also consider that the employer also benefitted from the ex-employee being trained.
Never had to defend, however I have been on the other end twice in 27 years of consulting engineering. I've signed many agreements in many states and countries that were too restrictive but were offered without the ability to negotiate terms. Businesses generally present the non-compete agreements on a take-it or leave-it basis, being legitimate or not. If you want the job, you sign it. I've had 2 companies that wanted me to not work in my specialized field for 3 years in the US, after leaving their company. One attempted to blacklist me. With the help of attorneys, I was successful in resolving these issues in my favor.
I was fortunate that I knew ahead of time what I was signing was not enforceable. There are three areas where covenant tend to go beyond what is necessary to protect the "Business" adequately: the geographical area, the time period and the scope of the activity restrained.
My attorney has approved my contracts and agreements.
I did not say 100% protection but I did say "close to 100% chance of winning?" and "almost guarantee you 100% protection."
I don't! However, some states/courts follow the “blue pencil” rule, which means if an agreement is too restrictive, the courts can modify it and then enforce it. While in other states, the “blue pencil” rule is prohibited.
I wonder how your court case would have worked out if you filed 3, 4 or 5 years after he left your business.
My point was intended to be that your state may have a "Blue Pencil" law that allows the courts to strike thru portions it does not deem to be appropriate and still apply other portions of the contract, where as other states may simpy void the entire covenant based on not accepting one specific part of it.
My statement was and still is a GENERAL statement that applies to everyone that may be reading this:
The real purpose of the Non-Compete Covenant is to protect your business - not just to try and intimidate ex-employees.
There are a lot of businesses that intimidate or try to intimidate employees. You may not consider yourself or your contracts intimidating but the perception may be there.
Often times the internet has a wealth of information that is more accurate than many posts on bulletin boards (this statement applies to all BB's and not in specific to your post).
Unfortunately a lot of people are not inclined to do their own research but rely on other people's information and assume it to be correct.
The internet is only a starting point and when laws are concerned, each person is responsible for their legal actions in their own state. I personally use the internet along with information on the BB's, info from family, friends and acquaintences but use checks and balances to ensure I've got solid ground under my feet.
Again, I offer my humble apologies for making it sound like a personal attack rather than discussion of specific points!
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Henry Bockman
Maryland Pressure Washing
Hey gang,
I'm not going to comment on this thread becouse I don't know anything about it at all. However, I am interested in doing something to protect myself. Could I convince someone on here to fax me a copy of this non-compete clause and the privacy one?
Henry
Fax 301 353 1677
I'm not going to comment on this thread becouse I don't know anything about it at all. However, I am interested in doing something to protect myself. Could I convince someone on here to fax me a copy of this non-compete clause and the privacy one?
Henry
Fax 301 353 1677
Paul B
No problem. After reading you detailed reply - I have to say it made me chuckle.
I can see that you do a lot of research - thats great. A prepared mind is a successful mind.
Anything dealing with legal issues, I leave up the Lawyers. I too, read constantly and truly enjoy researching, but I tend to focus on making money. My pasion is Marketing and business. I leave the legal issues to you and the Lawyers.
Enjoy your day.
No problem. After reading you detailed reply - I have to say it made me chuckle.
I can see that you do a lot of research - thats great. A prepared mind is a successful mind.
Anything dealing with legal issues, I leave up the Lawyers. I too, read constantly and truly enjoy researching, but I tend to focus on making money. My pasion is Marketing and business. I leave the legal issues to you and the Lawyers.
Enjoy your day.
Tim,
It's not just research, but I have been working for over 30 years in technical field which has exposed me to a lot of different situations in the US and abroad. I've also owned several businesses and have friends that are doctors, masons, lawyers, policeman, ATF agents, IRS agents, CPA's, owners of bars, and owners of many other businesses ranging from pool supply stores to quick-marts, recruiting agencies and engineering/consulting companies.
I've also spent many years in middle and upper management working hand-in-hand with HR folks to develop and administer policies and have come to understand many employee related issues as I've hired 100's, layed-off and fired more people than I wanted to. Many things have rubbed off on me.
I've had as many as 100 people working for me (direct/indirect reports) on projects and have generated proposals/estimates to large corporations that were in 10's of millions of dollars.
Being technically oriented, I pay attention to detail and when it comes to business related issues, especially when the business is mine, I like to understand what the contents of contracts are that has my businesses name on it and what employees are expected to sign. On top of that, lawyers and doctors are human so they can and will make mistakes - asking questions and just being involved reduces the bottom line mistakes.
In regards to research, I learned a long time ago:
You can't memorize everything, so knowing where to find things is more important. Thanks to the Internet, it has saved many trips to the library and speeded research time from hours and days to minutes.
The next chuckle is on me also!
It's not just research, but I have been working for over 30 years in technical field which has exposed me to a lot of different situations in the US and abroad. I've also owned several businesses and have friends that are doctors, masons, lawyers, policeman, ATF agents, IRS agents, CPA's, owners of bars, and owners of many other businesses ranging from pool supply stores to quick-marts, recruiting agencies and engineering/consulting companies.
I've also spent many years in middle and upper management working hand-in-hand with HR folks to develop and administer policies and have come to understand many employee related issues as I've hired 100's, layed-off and fired more people than I wanted to. Many things have rubbed off on me.
I've had as many as 100 people working for me (direct/indirect reports) on projects and have generated proposals/estimates to large corporations that were in 10's of millions of dollars.
Being technically oriented, I pay attention to detail and when it comes to business related issues, especially when the business is mine, I like to understand what the contents of contracts are that has my businesses name on it and what employees are expected to sign. On top of that, lawyers and doctors are human so they can and will make mistakes - asking questions and just being involved reduces the bottom line mistakes.
In regards to research, I learned a long time ago:
You can't memorize everything, so knowing where to find things is more important. Thanks to the Internet, it has saved many trips to the library and speeded research time from hours and days to minutes.
The next chuckle is on me also!
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Tim,
Not picking on you, honest! Promise no comments on your reply.
You start your new employees at $15 per hour, what expectations do you have for that role?
Do you do a 30, 60, 90 day or how often do you evaluate your new employee? Hand in hand, do you have positions and pay grades?
And if I may ask where do you top out your employees?
Those same questions would apply to the person that starts their new hires at $6 per hour. Would you care to comment?
Not picking on you, honest! Promise no comments on your reply.
You start your new employees at $15 per hour, what expectations do you have for that role?
Do you do a 30, 60, 90 day or how often do you evaluate your new employee? Hand in hand, do you have positions and pay grades?
And if I may ask where do you top out your employees?
Those same questions would apply to the person that starts their new hires at $6 per hour. Would you care to comment?
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Paul B
Did you mention Operations Manager in your resume. I sense that you have some experience in Operations based on your questions. I was an Operation Manager for a group of approx. 350 people in the Air Force (Air Craft Maintenance) & in the civilian world in the Automobile Parts Maunfacture Industry. I got tired of making other people money. Back to your questions.
I've developed a Three-Tier Training Program - very similar to the Air Force.
Apprentice
Journeyman
Craftsman
Each has a base pay......
Apprentice $10.00
Journeyman $12.00
Craftsman $15.00
The above is the ceiling for pay, except for Craftsman. A Craftsman can received raises based on time with company and work ethic.
I've develop a training program that separates different jobs and task. for example:
Decks:
-Cleaning
-Maintenance
-Sealing
-Chemical Knowledge
I've set different levels based on skill levels.
I do not have time limits on the different skill levels.
I could keep talking about it, but it would take up a ton of space - lots of stuff to explain. Like, I said - I was an operations manager in the Air Force & one of the things that fell under my command was Training. I've based my model on the Air Force.
The guys seem to like it - it gives them a sense of pride. I'm in the process of creating Correspondence Training Books with Evaluation Test. At this point, the evaluation is mostly based on performance. I want more evaluation on the knowledge portion.
I have one guy that is classified as a Craftsman - He makes $15.00. I starting another crew and I've made him Crew Chief. Once he proves that he can run the crew efficiently, I plan to give him a $3.00 pay raise.
This Training program is in the testing mode.
Paul - please reply. I'm a big boy. Just not personal.
Let the discussions begin.
Did you mention Operations Manager in your resume. I sense that you have some experience in Operations based on your questions. I was an Operation Manager for a group of approx. 350 people in the Air Force (Air Craft Maintenance) & in the civilian world in the Automobile Parts Maunfacture Industry. I got tired of making other people money. Back to your questions.
I've developed a Three-Tier Training Program - very similar to the Air Force.
Apprentice
Journeyman
Craftsman
Each has a base pay......
Apprentice $10.00
Journeyman $12.00
Craftsman $15.00
The above is the ceiling for pay, except for Craftsman. A Craftsman can received raises based on time with company and work ethic.
I've develop a training program that separates different jobs and task. for example:
Decks:
-Cleaning
-Maintenance
-Sealing
-Chemical Knowledge
I've set different levels based on skill levels.
I do not have time limits on the different skill levels.
I could keep talking about it, but it would take up a ton of space - lots of stuff to explain. Like, I said - I was an operations manager in the Air Force & one of the things that fell under my command was Training. I've based my model on the Air Force.
The guys seem to like it - it gives them a sense of pride. I'm in the process of creating Correspondence Training Books with Evaluation Test. At this point, the evaluation is mostly based on performance. I want more evaluation on the knowledge portion.
I have one guy that is classified as a Craftsman - He makes $15.00. I starting another crew and I've made him Crew Chief. Once he proves that he can run the crew efficiently, I plan to give him a $3.00 pay raise.
This Training program is in the testing mode.
Paul - please reply. I'm a big boy. Just not personal.
Let the discussions begin.
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Thanks Tim!
My resume for work is much shorter than my resume of life.
My job titles were many but my functional roles were even more (sucker for punishment). But I don't have a hang-up on titles as long as the work is rewarded. Lets just say some of my roles were in upper management - so I have exposure to many facets of developing, running and expanding large organizations.
I'm proud of both my "Inc. 500" pins.
So you don't actually start your new (inexperienced) employees at $15 per hour,
you start an apprentice at what rate?
My resume for work is much shorter than my resume of life.
My job titles were many but my functional roles were even more (sucker for punishment). But I don't have a hang-up on titles as long as the work is rewarded. Lets just say some of my roles were in upper management - so I have exposure to many facets of developing, running and expanding large organizations.
I'm proud of both my "Inc. 500" pins.
So you don't actually start your new (inexperienced) employees at $15 per hour,
you start an apprentice at what rate?
We should work for Paul
Bill, welcome aboard....
EnviroClean
Member
Wow,
I know I started a business to make money but I cannot see paying someone just 12 bucks an hour. I want the best people and I do believe you get what you pay for.
I know I started a business to make money but I cannot see paying someone just 12 bucks an hour. I want the best people and I do believe you get what you pay for.
Russ Spence
Commercial Pressure Wash Expert
thats what they say
rayf268
New member
IT seems very objective the amount you pay being your not going to make the same money living in new york city area or L.A. cal that you would pay in the midwest here in indiana the minum wage I think is $5.25 at a fairly untrained position with 5yrs $15 hr is good money. I agree if you have your biz on the line you better have someone who gives a damn and paid enough to know better. I wouldn't start anyone out that isn't in my line of sight at all times at less then $10 here. I belive I would also have a bonus % to help keep the quility up and hours down. all this coming from a guy who hasen't even started his Biz. yet so take it for what its worth