EPA Enforcement in 2012 Protects Communities From Harmful Pollution

Ok, now number four Below is the whole text.

So, finally we get to any mention whatsoever about hot water. Here, in Oregon, the state that is going to tax you for every mile you drive, we have found another draconian BMP.

Looking at the highlight in yellow you will see that, similar to the BMP that you are trying to force on us, this BMP calls for runoff from heated water cleaning can go in the storm drain.

But if you will look up a little higher, underlined in red, it also says NO RUNOFF FROM HEATED WATER CLEANING can go ANYWHERE ELSE EITHER. How is that going to work out for Jim if he is cleaning garages with 300 degrees?????

A better use of time than taking horrible bmp's like this and trying to craft a similar BMP for us would be for you to have spent a little time in Oregon convincing these people how ridiculous this Bmp is.

But that's ok Robert, We, at the UAMCC will take up the cause and fight Bmp's like this rather than use them as guidelines.

Still, there is no reference to hot water being considered an emulsifier, but I will go on to the next one.

pressurewashinghot4_zps9493a530.jpg
Tony:

That used to be the verbiage in some of their work, studies, and BMPs which are now up on PWNA’s website. That was the largest and most intensive study that I am aware in this industry. I have used the term since the early 90s, and got called to task at one of the EPA Events, along with the fact that Power Washing dislodges more contaminates that a rain event. I decided to make a stand on the Rain Event and relent on the Hot Water Issue as almost all AHJs agreed with it, and most did not challenge the Rain Event. You have to choose your battles.

I disagreed but the verbiage was changed so the contract cleaner could understand it better. From a technical point of view, the original verbiage is better.

I am not aware of re-entering the term; it has always been there since the early 90s. You were the only one who has challenged it since the early 90s. The only other place I found it was in the curriculum of a 4 Grade Science Class Project.

The other thing I would do is have 10 contact cleaners go in separately to the same AHJ on issues that were not: Reasonable, Rational, and Logical. Usually after contractor # 7 or 8 they would reconsider their position.

When I Environmental Chairman of both UAMCC and PWNA I would have one association go in first, then the other organization go in second; this worked very well to get things: Reasonable, Rational, and Logical. I found it did not make much difference that each association took slightly different positions. What you have is to get is for them to look as the issues.

There is risk in a Regulator doing anything new as far as the CWA goes. The do not do “new” very well; the culture is not designed for it. If anything goes wrong they can be held personally liable for it, this actually happened not far from Fort Worth.

You should be aware of environmentalists suing the EPA all of the time. Anyone can sue anyone over the CWA. I do not agree with it, but that is what the law is.

One last note: the Charlotte, NC event was done at the request of UAMCC, you can verify this with Carlos.
 
Doug Rucker-- I know you said if you have to remove any of my post I'm banned. In case your thinking that because of my Post #346 in reply to Scott Stones # 345 I'm only teaching Scott a term that he's probably not familiar with and it's something that can can have a positive affect on him if he applies it.. And it's only a suggestion that I do not expect him to understand it anyway.

John, unfortunately for you I understand the term far better then you would believe. In fact, you will notice that I have not engaged you in this thread at all, until you decided to question my standing. I will not even address the incomprehensible verbiage that you put out to obfuscate what you do, and do not, understand. Other people call it "arguing with Idiots".
Additionally, you yourself have said that New York cops have an average IQ of 97. I wish I could find the thread, but it was probably deleted to protect you. 97 is barely in the average, which scares me.
So, if I am saying that a New York Cop can understand, I guess it means that an average person could understand.

All in all, I think that every single person here has the same goal. We all want to run and maintain profitable businesses. None of us want to damage the environment, and none of us wants anyone else telling us how to manage our business. If I am incorrect here, please let me know which doesn't apply to you.
There are two differences between Robert and I. I have run a profitable cleaning operation for the last 23 years. Last year, my tax return showed a loss for the year, but that was because I bought 18 trucks in December, that were totally written off. I am sure you will agree that 18 trucks will put a dent in any contract cleaners reported income. The other difference is in that profitable cleaning enterprise, I have had an operable reclaim system that meets or exceeds all of my local standards, for the last 18 years. Robert cannot make that claim. Michael probably can, but, they are two different people. I probably have also composed more hazardous waste programs then any person on this board, as few as those programs may be.
BTW, I think it is funny that you are insinuating I am stupid.
 
Scott one quick post from me and of course feel free to rebut it because you always want the last word. Very few successful business men are confident enough to let someone else have the last word.. So I'm good and the last word here is yours so we can all read the important information at hand in this thread.

First off to clear the air, I don't delete threads so stop that nonsense. I did delete once and took it with me the whole Babe Ruth thread from here and how my wife is a liar etc etc. I'm at the doorstep with that today. I still can talk to Ron and we can disagree like sons of bitches but that's on us.

If you ever come to NY it's my treat to have you sit in with Multi Millionaires and Billionaires. I'm not a dick as you portray. I do not consider you stupid and never have. You want to bring up a thread that the average cop is 97 IQ.. That's incorrect but your close. The average IQ for people is a 100. My officials score is 109 because I have that from my military records. Look things up for yourself instead of belittling people because your now in the big leagues. The highest at least use to be was around 129 IQ on average which was for Engineers or doctors. That's the average for them.

Civil servants fall into 100-110 on average IQ. Do I know civil servants higher then that? Of course. There probably much higher then yours is and none of that means squat.

So please stop and don't forget where you came from. I did not delete any Ppst or threads here except that one thread. I also do not think for a second your stupid.

You and I are misfiring and it's stemming from what I brought in to you guys. At least that's what I feel.

I always thought the world of you Scott and yes indeed I did call you and I was deeply disappointed that you left the UAMCC because I did indeed think you were an asset who could help many.

So stop it. You want to catch me in Vegas, New Orleans or the heart of NY city.. I'll make sure your dinner is paid. Tony Shelton knows I'm far from being a dumb stupid dick. You want to go to a restaurant that has a 2 yr wait that neither Hillary Clinton, Madonna and sad to say Jon Jon Kennedy was there and died 2 weeks later in a plane crash.. I'll take you there.

I earn everything I have and I ask nothing in return.. Nothing. I donated 1000's to the UAMCC, PWNA and want nothing in return. Never ask for anything either. I am a worker and love it. I owe nobody anything... Nothing.

Think for yourself... Did I ever ask for anything in return?? Did I Scott? I know your a smart guy. Your good people as well. I also feel on opinion that you should work out your differences with Jim Gamble. Get on a plane and Iron it out.

Now can we get back on track or do you want to keep portraying me as some stupid Azz because my IQ is not some computer test bull jazz 160?

Do a reality check.. And we'll be good. Does that work for you? Tell me...
 
I never mentioned your IQ. You also brought a lot of stuff up that I never mentioned in this thread. Let's keep it on topic, at least a little bit.

I feel I am qualified to run an environmental group, for just the reasons I mentioned above. I don't think that my IQ, my BMI, or BP has anything to do with it, as long as I have the knowledge available to perform the job.
Like I said, I think that we all have the same goals. Our methods of achieving those goals appear to be different, and wide spread. Robert chooses to have a consistent BMP nationwide, so that contractors know what they need to do to be in compliance.
I choose to portray contractors as a solution to pollution, and get us classified, as a group, falling under the NPDES permit that we live in, as long as we follow some very basic guidelines.

As for me settling with Jim, it is not going to happen. He breached the trust and friendship. He can do his thing, and I will do mine. As long as he does not make the same type of snide remarks that you apparently have a problem with on other boards, I am good. That does not mean that I will not disagree with him. I will when I feel that he is giving bad, self serving, or incorrect information, because I do not feel that he has demonstrated the intellectual gravitas, to be able to make some of the claims that he has made, that others have found to be either false, or misleading.
 
Tony:

That used to be the verbiage in some of their work, studies, and BMPs which are now up on PWNA’s website. That was the largest and most intensive study that I am aware in this industry. I have used the term since the early 90s, and got called to task at one of the EPA Events, along with the fact that Power Washing dislodges more contaminates that a rain event. I decided to make a stand on the Rain Event and relent on the Hot Water Issue as almost all AHJs agreed with it, and most did not challenge the Rain Event. You have to choose your battles.

I disagreed but the verbiage was changed so the contract cleaner could understand it better. From a technical point of view, the original verbiage is better.

I am not aware of re-entering the term; it has always been there since the early 90s. You were the only one who has challenged it since the early 90s. The only other place I found it was in the curriculum of a 4 Grade Science Class Project.

The other thing I would do is have 10 contact cleaners go in separately to the same AHJ on issues that were not: Reasonable, Rational, and Logical. Usually after contractor # 7 or 8 they would reconsider their position.

When I Environmental Chairman of both UAMCC and PWNA I would have one association go in first, then the other organization go in second; this worked very well to get things: Reasonable, Rational, and Logical. I found it did not make much difference that each association took slightly different positions. What you have is to get is for them to look as the issues.

There is risk in a Regulator doing anything new as far as the CWA goes. The do not do “new” very well; the culture is not designed for it. If anything goes wrong they can be held personally liable for it, this actually happened not far from Fort Worth.

You should be aware of environmentalists suing the EPA all of the time. Anyone can sue anyone over the CWA. I do not agree with it, but that is what the law is.

One last note: the Charlotte, NC event was done at the request of UAMCC, you can verify this with Carlos.

Of course power washing whether cold or hot is more than a rain event. The difference is, a powerwasher can pre-clean and screen for pollutants or debris where a raincloud can't and won't. That is why we are cleaners and not polluters.

As far as choosing your battles....Robert, the battle was already won. Most AHJ's already had BMP's in place (Basmaa, Las Vegas, and many others for example) that had no concern whatsoever whether the water was hot or cold. We were winning, and you brought in an old concept that hadn't been mentioned since the 90's.

Your idea of having many contractors work on the AHJ's is solid. However, I fail to see where that has happened. Up until the past year or so people have just taken your word and accepted whatever you have told them the EPA requires.

What about what we require? Why aren't we telling them what we require in order to continue our jobs of cleaning up the environment? We require solutions that are practical and practicable (as the law requires). And it has been going in that direction for quite a while because the bulk of the regulators are not wackos, they are just normal people trying to get a job done and doing it to the best of their ability.

I don't know what else to say. I could go on about how your and Jim's goal is to raise prices in the industry and develop "elite" contractors to weed out the newer or less funded contractors. That is in fundamental opposition to what I believe doing business is all about. But there is no changing your mind on this matter.

The overwhelming majority of contractors want you to shut down "shopping" the Bmp's. They also feel you flat out lied to them when you said you wouldn't "shop" them.

I don't know what else to say. I've done about all I can do.
 
Like I said, I think that we all have the same goals. Our methods of achieving those goals appear to be different, and wide spread. Robert chooses to have a consistent BMP nationwide, so that contractors know what they need to do to be in compliance.
I choose to portray contractors as a solution to pollution, and get us classified, as a group, falling under the NPDES permit that we live in, as long as we follow some very basic guidelines.
Ok Scott-- let's parlay this right into this thread. That's what in the end smart people at least on the common sense level will do.
I just got off the phone with Robert. My life like yours is busy enough. I also talked to Jim Gamble earlier. Like you or at least I think, we don't have time to yap on the phone as much as some others. I wish I did.. But I don't. Robert called me when I was at my daughters dance studio watching her dance with more passion than I ever did anything. I called him back when my daughter was ready to leave. I also called Ron M. Tonight and we talked for a minute. He was with his family and family always comes first.

Take all differences out for a second. Do you think in a positive way Robert Hinderliter has done alot for this Industry? Do you believe he traveled around the country and sat in with regulators? Do you think he's really passionate about all this? Do you think he gives a darn? Do you see what I'm driving at? Do you?

Now for my opinion and one who knows how to use something I believe to be a benefit to many. I did this in the past and I understand in business it very well is dog eat dog so it can be about the singular as in ones business only. I think you can see beyond that. Most can't but I'll look a the cup as being half filled here instead of half empty. I think you can see beyond that.

So if you can you could still be in a difference of opinion with Robert on the final analysis....but.. You also can see that Robert does care about contractors and he does care about the Environment. You may now have guys with 1-5-10yrs on who say bullshit. They think we should be able to do whatever we want. When I was younger at times I thought the same.. But now where wiser. Youth can have it all but they can't have that. They need to live it first.

So if you think Robert gave a darn and you may have a difference of opinion on the final analysis why is it you and some others who you would think would know this, why can't you build on what Robert has done? Why can't we,us,them go in there agreeing to a point so we can get noticed and be considered respectable enough for the powers to be to take this Industry serious enough?

Why Scott is it that we have to crap on each other to try and prove the other guy is an azzhole to the Internet community when guys like you and me know people of power will not give a hoot about that? Look where you are today. Did you pointing out peoples short comings on the net or if you want to say I did the same(I don't believe I did) really get you the respect you have on the outside because of the net?

Where older now then most here. What do you supposed a real wiseman would do here? I know some of this from experience because in most cases I didn't represent myself as one.

We can argue forever on the net. We can all play keyboard cowboy. But you Scott already know what the real world is and who you had to deal with.... So with that knowledge what do you Scott whether your completely right or slightly wrong do with a person that's been such an innovator and resilient as Robert has been? You tell me.. Tell them... Tell us.

PWI is your forum more then it is Mine or Roberts and others as well. I know where Ron stands and how he ticks... And Ron from being from Chicago Southside if I remember correctly him and I can piss up a tree and want to kill each other(figure of speech)... But what about you Scott.. Tell us what Scott Stone thinks the right way is to get people of power to listen. Is it really by disproving us who you even said above that most of us have the same goals??
 
Ok Scott-- let's parlay this right into this thread. That's what in the end smart people at least on the common sense level will do.
I just got off the phone with Robert. My life like yours is busy enough. I also talked to Jim Gamble earlier. Like you or at least I think, we don't have time to yap on the phone as much as some others. I wish I did.. But I don't. Robert called me when I was at my daughters dance studio watching her dance with more passion than I ever did anything. I called him back when my daughter was ready to leave. I also called Ron M. Tonight and we talked for a minute. He was with his family and family always comes first.

Take all differences out for a second. Do you think in a positive way Robert Hinderliter has done alot for this Industry? Do you believe he traveled around the country and sat in with regulators? Do you think he's really passionate about all this? Do you think he gives a darn? Do you see what I'm driving at? Do you?

Now for my opinion and one who knows how to use something I believe to be a benefit to many. I did this in the past and I understand in business it very well is dog eat dog so it can be about the singular as in ones business only. I think you can see beyond that. Most can't but I'll look a the cup as being half filled here instead of half empty. I think you can see beyond that.

So if you can you could still be in a difference of opinion with Robert on the final analysis....but.. You also can see that Robert does care about contractors and he does care about the Environment. You may now have guys with 1-5-10yrs on who say bullshit. They think we should be able to do whatever we want. When I was younger at times I thought the same.. But now where wiser. Youth can have it all but they can't have that. They need to live it first.

So if you think Robert gave a darn and you may have a difference of opinion on the final analysis why is it you and some others who you would think would know this, why can't you build on what Robert has done? Why can't we,us,them go in there agreeing to a point so we can get noticed and be considered respectable enough for the powers to be to take this Industry serious enough?

Why Scott is it that we have to crap on each other to try and prove the other guy is an azzhole to the Internet community when guys like you and me know people of power will not give a hoot about that? Look where you are today. Did you pointing out peoples short comings on the net or if you want to say I did the same(I don't believe I did) really get you the respect you have on the outside because of the net?

Where older now then most here. What do you supposed a real wiseman would do here? I know some of this from experience because in most cases I didn't represent myself as one.

We can argue forever on the net. We can all play keyboard cowboy. But you Scott already know what the real world is and who you had to deal with.... So with that knowledge what do you Scott whether your completely right or slightly wrong do with a person that's been such an innovator and resilient as Robert has been? You tell me.. Tell them... Tell us.

PWI is your forum more then it is Mine or Roberts and others as well. I know where Ron stands and how he ticks... And Ron from being from Chicago Southside if I remember correctly him and I can piss up a tree and want to kill each other(figure of speech)... But what about you Scott.. Tell us what Scott Stone thinks the right way is to get people of power to listen. Is it really by disproving us who you even said above that most of us have the same goals??

I can't speak for Scott but I wholeheartedly believe that Robert does not care about the contractors. It is evidenced by his actions. The PWN@ without a doubt does not care about the contractors. They are on written record that BMP's would not be shopped and are doing it anyway. Follow the money trail. If I sold reclaim equipment for a living I would probably be in their shoes. There is a better way to make a sale than deception though.
 
I can't speak for Scott but I wholeheartedly believe that Robert does not care about the contractors. It is evidenced by his actions. The PWN@ without a doubt does not care about the contractors. They are on written record that BMP's would not be shopped and are doing it anyway. Follow the money trail. If I sold reclaim equipment for a living I would probably be in their shoes. There is a better way to make a sale than deception though.
Then why William is the PWNA @ least 15 contractors to every 1 vendor as members?
 
Also William and I'm not saying this to be a shizzhead, what do you think the UAMCC Pres,Vp and at least a BOD also do on the side with there contracting business?

Oh, oh, I know this one.......peak over other people's fences??....no that's not it.....use the Org to save their company 100's of thousands of dollars??...no that's not it.... Don't need (or want) members for the survival of the Org.?.... .........what was the question again???
 
I am not a member of the UAMCC and don't know who the Pres or VP are. I wish it would go away as much as I want the PWN@ to go away. I am not sure what the ratio of vendors to members has to do with anything. Wrong is wrong. If some one wants to be a member of a pressure washing club I don't care as long as it does not have any bearing on me. Rubert and the PWN@ shopping BMP's that are custom written to sale reclaim has a bearing on my little world and I want them to go away.
 
Oh, oh, I know this one.......peak over other people's fences??....no that's not it.....use the Org to save their company 100's of thousands of dollars??...no that's not it.... Don't need (or want) members for the survival of the Org.?.... .........what was the question again???
Lol.. You have to much info in your head..lol
 
I am not a member of the UAMCC and don't know who the Pres or VP are. I wish it would go away as much as I want the PWN@ to go away. I am not sure what the ratio of vendors to members has to do with anything. Wrong is wrong. If some one wants to be a member of a pressure washing club I don't care as long as it does not have any bearing on me. Rubert and the PWN@ shopping BMP's that are custom written to sale reclaim has a bearing on my little world and I want them to go away.
Fair enough. I think we had this discussion in the past. You want things to stay where they were or at least were a few years back. Where I live is probably much different to where you live as far as people's mindsets are. I was brought up with both parents smoking all the time and me and my sisters smoked for yrs. Today just 1 sister and my Mom still smoke but there restricted up the GAZOO.

There's towns here where even smoking on a sidewalk is illegal. They changed laws here. Since I retired I got 5 tickets now from Red light camera's that have no discretion. Sliding on ice to avoid a tractor trailer doesn't mean squat(3 of these tickets I was clearly guilty with 2 of them being I needed to stop 1/10th of a second longer when I made a legal right on red)

Point being..everything changes. EPA etc etc are at times major money trains. Some rules are good such as not dumping trash anywhere near the shoreline but other rules suck.
Proactive is one of the best ways to make a difference. Doing that but being unrealistic is an uphill battle.
Most people William just don't care.. and that's understandable. For the one's that do who are in this thread they need to find a middle ground or something instead of accusing each other of being the enemy.

To take this one step further and it's only to make a point because this person is dead and Many 1000's are glad he is to.

Osama Bin Laden almost did the perfect strike on us.(keep to myself what wasn't perfect about it). After 9-11 we all started blaming each other. The liberals this, the conservatives that, the US Military this, the US Military that, George Bush this and George Bush that--

Extreme example just to make a point.. Who's really the enemy here??
 
John. What you say I want and what I want are two different things. If I do have a problem in my area I will handle or pay for representation. I do not need the uamcc in my backyard talking with officials or Robert with a bullhorn making sales pitches. You are correct in who the enemy is though. Will you help me fight to keep Rubert and the pwn@ from trying to represent us?
 
John. What you say I want and what I want are two different things. If I do have a problem in my area I will handle or pay for representation. I do not need the uamcc in my backyard talking with officials or Robert with a bullhorn making sales pitches. You are correct in who the enemy is though. Will you help me fight to keep Rubert and the pwn@ from trying to represent us?
Lol... Are you really having a problem in your area William?? The Left coast errr I meant the West Coast you can't even walk the wrong way and yet you can smoke Pot there until your brains turn into scrambled eggs...

If you needed the right representation in your State I would look for someone like A Guy Blackmon but him alone once again is an uphill battle that most likely will not be worth it for him or you.

Now if Guy sat in with some serious group backing people may be more inclined to listen.

Me personally I am not nowhere near an environmentalist and I think people like Al Gore were full of bull to the most extent. As for Robert yes I know he sells equipment. I also know him as a person because I took the time to listen to him over the years. I also remember around the yrs 1999-2000 when I thought Robert had some great points but he also was selling his equipment so I was Leary like I am with most sales people(and now where really sales people).

His goals were to not get fined. Also to not sell something where the contractor had no means to buy from Robert where he couldn't be protected. People forget that Robert sold Powerwashers,surface machines and other everyday machines we all use today.

I do not think Robert was all about the bullhorn like the way you explain it and it's funny the way you post it..

Now if you had a real problem where you live and you were to say that Guy,Ron,Scott Stone, Charlie Arnold,Jerry McMillen etc and a few others were coming down to help you make your case IMHO the one person in this Industry I would recommend to be there as well would be Robert because not only does he have the intellect to understand these regulators he can converse with them on there level as well probably better then any legal Eagle could ever do..

He's a resource in the Powerwashing Industry bar none who has the door opened enough for maybe a Scott Stone or a Charlie Arnold(extremely passionate person) or maybe even some 21 yr old kid here to be the next star in our Industry.

To make you Puke a little more William(I know you wont cause you can take it) this is why I tried to get Robert Recognized within because that gives this Industry at least a recognizable name for the doors to open further up... And with that my friend-- welcome to the world of politics.
 
I never said I had a problem in my area. I cannot follow you John. What does your parents smoking or the West Coast have to do with trying to get Robert to quit? I am sure Scott Stone does not need Robert to help him do anything. We are not in the world of politics. I to have heard the words Rubert has said and have made an informed decision based on what he has said and done. You came to an opposite conclusion. You mention a star in the industry? Who needs a star. I could not care less about the industry. Just leave me and mine alone. My goal would be for every pressure washer but me to go out of business. Maybe I do have something in common with Rubert afterall.
 
My goal would be for every pressure washer but me to go out of business.

and this is where we ended up just like the last time William. At least you always stayed true to your word and you are no hypocrit. Good to see you around once in awhile.
 
Steven:

When I got involved; the industry was basically required to recycle waste water; all of the vendors were selling some type of recycle equipment. RGF was a major vendor because Ron Fink and Jerry Boyd were out front of everyone else.

My approach was that the "easier was the compliance", "the higher the level the compliance would be". This was a radical and was not accepted. I did not have the finances to fight it in court. I knew it was a political situation; I was not a political person. The industry was in turmoil. The Miami and San Francisco Areas for a short time stopped power washing. I knew that what happened in CA would affect TX in about two years.

I discussed this with a local AHJ; he took me under his wings and schooled me the ways of Regulatory Community. He told me that the CWA was basically interpreted by everyone's economic revenue stream and that our Industry was being controlled by the "Coin-Op Carwash Association" and the "Liquid Waste Haulers"; I was invited to a lot of regulatory training meetings, which were open to anyone who wanted to attend.

He could not talk to me as an individual company owner but could as a representative of a National Trade Association. I tried to get the manufactures to open up their association to everyone, they would not.

Then I launched PWNA and in April, 1995; had about 225 attendees to full fill the role of a trade association . In the early years the purpose was to establish Environment BMPs. The industry was dominated by small businesses that could barely survive, these type of operators saw no reason to unite, the value of a trade association, or the advantages of numbers.

The Manufacturers establish BMPs to basically support their efforts; I was chastised for creation BMPs that were favorable to the Contract Cleaner. After PWNA was formed, my wife and I got on a crowded elevator at a Manufactures Trade Show and everyone crowded to the other side! My wife's response was "What did you do now?". Simple, I established PWNA, which I gave to the Contract Cleaners.

PWNA was not being able to get very much accomplished for the first 3 years. So I arranged a Compliance Conference that resulted in 40 Environmental Regulators (Federal EPA all the way down to local regulators) and 100 contract cleaners attending. There was a lot of discussion between everyone, AHJ to AHJ and contractors to AHJs. The Feds, State, and Locals decided what each would be responsible for and basic structure and BMPs. This Conference resulted in the EPAs Model Ordinance, which was a group effort of stake holders and government:


  • The best place for the Waste Water was the Sanitary Sewer with some exception for "cold water and no chemicals" and Hot Water without chemicals with preauthorization from the AHJ.
  • Hot Water was above 110F (Major fight with Phoenix over this).
  • The amount of waste water delivered to the Sanitary Sewer was insignificant compared to the total amount of waste water the POTW are handling.
  • Because of the statement about the contractor would not have to use any special chemicals, they could continue their present procedures.
  • Recycling was to be avoided if at all possible, as this concentrates the waste.
  • Hot Water and Detergents are emulsifiers and should be treated the same (I did not create this, the AHJs did. Having a technical background, I could not argue the truth of this statement. I never dreamed I would be accused of creating this, which I was not until the Ron Machine got started).
  • The major problem for the Sanitary Sewers was the silt and sludge which will stop up the sewer line and filters at the POTW. Filtration for these items would be required through a screen which would be easy for contract cleaners.
  • The CWA say no Oil-Sheen, and oil absorbent boom will remove this.
  • The contractor should pre-clean silt, sludge, hydrocarbons, etc.
  • Based on the above two statements, Always Pre-clean, and Always Filter for Hydrocarbons and silt/sand/sludge.
  • BMPs for Storm Water were not designed for "processed water" or "Industrial Water" and should be used only under the exceptions stated above.
  • High Pressure Power Washing dislodges more contaminates that a rain event and cannot be treated the same. The dislodged items need to be collected before being washed into the MS4 and is not through filters designed for Storm Water; which are not designed for the increased load. The extra dislodged items will increase the TSS and Turbidity of the water and impair living organism.
  • Chemical are nutrients and when added to the MS4 unset the natural habitat.
  • Established that the Ordinance should be Reasonable, Rational, and logical (not arbitrary by the Regulators)
  • The Model Ordinance is a Model for the Municipalities to follows, but not a requirement.
  • Discharge to the Sanitary Sewer at Ph range of 5.0 to 12.0 and below 150F; solids - less than 250 mg/L, petroleum - less than 250 mg/L.
  • For discharges to landscape areas you must do the following:
    • Obtain the property owner’s permission.
    • Ensure discharge volume is small enough that it soaks into the ground without running off the property. Limit your discharge to 1,000 gallons/acre per month.
    • On property, wash water discharge can only occur on the property where the wash water is generated
    • Do not discharge repeatedly to the same landscape area because doing so may contaminate soil and groundwater, damage plants, and cause other nuisance conditions.
    • Ensure pH of the wash water is between 6.0 and 9.0 by using pH test strips.
  • Use biodegradable, non-toxic, phosphate-free detergents when practical.
  • Biodegradable does not mean non-toxic, it only means that it can be easily processed at a sanitary sewer plant. It does not mean that it can be discharged to the storm drain.
  • Discharging to landscaping, sanitary sewers or storm drains under these guidelines is not a release of liability to the contractor or customer if clean up or remediation is required.
  • Your customer is responsible for Cradle to Grave, only Oregon is the exception to this rule.
  • If there is violation, then everyone in the chain of events can be sited, the local AHJ decides based on the circumstances who get cited.

The result of the Model Ordinance is that Expensive Recycling Equipment was no longer needed, why I was chastised at the Manufactures Association. I showed contractors how they could comply for a few hundred dollars, not thousands. I gave out enough information that the average contractor could build his own equipment.

I just announced simple inexpensive equipment to meet the model ordinance, revealed plans that everyone with any talent could copy, published remediation basics so that contractors could have a guideline on how to build their own system. All of this information is free; I will only get orders from contractors who time is more valuable than the cost of the equipment.

Some contractors order their first unit from me, then copy and build their own the next time.

I made it obvious that the contractor being compliant is more important than money in my life. People who suggest otherwise are brain dead.
 
Steven:

When I got involved; the industry was basically required to recycle waste water; all of the vendors were selling some type of recycle equipment. RGF was a major vendor because Ron Fink and Jerry Boyd were out front of everyone else.

My approach was that the "easier was the compliance", "the higher the level the compliance would be". This was a radical and was not accepted. I did not have the finances to fight it in court. I knew it was a political situation; I was not a political person. The industry was in turmoil. The Miami and San Francisco Areas for a short time stopped power washing. I knew that what happened in CA would affect TX in about two years.

I discussed this with a local AHJ; he took me under his wings and schooled me the ways of Regulatory Community. He told me that the CWA was basically interpreted by everyone's economic revenue stream and that our Industry was being controlled by the "Coin-Op Carwash Association" and the "Liquid Waste Haulers"; I was invited to a lot of regulatory training meetings, which were open to anyone who wanted to attend.

He could not talk to me as an individual company owner but could as a representative of a National Trade Association. I tried to get the manufactures to open up their association to everyone, they would not.

Then I launched PWNA and in April, 1995; had about 225 attendees to full fill the role of a trade association . In the early years the purpose was to establish Environment BMPs. The industry was dominated by small businesses that could barely survive, these type of operators saw no reason to unite, the value of a trade association, or the advantages of numbers.

The Manufacturers establish BMPs to basically support their efforts; I was chastised for creation BMPs that were favorable to the Contract Cleaner. After PWNA was formed, my wife and I got on a crowded elevator at a Manufactures Trade Show and everyone crowded to the other side! My wife's response was "What did you do now?". Simple, I established PWNA, which I gave to the Contract Cleaners.

PWNA was not being able to get very much accomplished for the first 3 years. So I arranged a Compliance Conference that resulted in 40 Environmental Regulators (Federal EPA all the way down to local regulators) and 100 contract cleaners attending. There was a lot of discussion between everyone, AHJ to AHJ and contractors to AHJs. The Feds, State, and Locals decided what each would be responsible for and basic structure and BMPs. This Conference resulted in the EPAs Model Ordinance, which was a group effort of stake holders and government:


  • The best place for the Waste Water was the Sanitary Sewer with some exception for "cold water and no chemicals" and Hot Water without chemicals with preauthorization from the AHJ.
  • Hot Water was above 110F (Major fight with Phoenix over this).
  • The amount of waste water delivered to the Sanitary Sewer was insignificant compared to the total amount of waste water the POTW are handling.
  • Because of the statement about the contractor would not have to use any special chemicals, they could continue their present procedures.
  • Recycling was to be avoided if at all possible, as this concentrates the waste.
  • Hot Water and Detergents are emulsifiers and should be treated the same (I did not create this, the AHJs did. Having a technical background, I could not argue the truth of this statement. I never dreamed I would be accused of creating this, which I was not until the Ron Machine got started).
  • The major problem for the Sanitary Sewers was the silt and sludge which will stop up the sewer line and filters at the POTW. Filtration for these items would be required through a screen which would be easy for contract cleaners.
  • The CWA say no Oil-Sheen, and oil absorbent boom will remove this.
  • The contractor should pre-clean silt, sludge, hydrocarbons, etc.
  • Based on the above two statements, Always Pre-clean, and Always Filter for Hydrocarbons and silt/sand/sludge.
  • BMPs for Storm Water were not designed for "processed water" or "Industrial Water" and should be used only under the exceptions stated above.
  • High Pressure Power Washing dislodges more contaminates that a rain event and cannot be treated the same. The dislodged items need to be collected before being washed into the MS4 and is not through filters designed for Storm Water; which are not designed for the increased load. The extra dislodged items will increase the TSS and Turbidity of the water and impair living organism.
  • Chemical are nutrients and when added to the MS4 unset the natural habitat.
  • Established that the Ordinance should be Reasonable, Rational, and logical (not arbitrary by the Regulators)
  • The Model Ordinance is a Model for the Municipalities to follows, but not a requirement.
  • Discharge to the Sanitary Sewer at Ph range of 5.0 to 12.0 and below 150F; solids - less than 250 mg/L, petroleum - less than 250 mg/L.
  • For discharges to landscape areas you must do the following:
    • Obtain the property owner’s permission.
    • Ensure discharge volume is small enough that it soaks into the ground without running off the property. Limit your discharge to 1,000 gallons/acre per month.
    • On property, wash water discharge can only occur on the property where the wash water is generated
    • Do not discharge repeatedly to the same landscape area because doing so may contaminate soil and groundwater, damage plants, and cause other nuisance conditions.
    • Ensure pH of the wash water is between 6.0 and 9.0 by using pH test strips.
  • Use biodegradable, non-toxic, phosphate-free detergents when practical.
  • Biodegradable does not mean non-toxic, it only means that it can be easily processed at a sanitary sewer plant. It does not mean that it can be discharged to the storm drain.
  • Discharging to landscaping, sanitary sewers or storm drains under these guidelines is not a release of liability to the contractor or customer if clean up or remediation is required.
  • Your customer is responsible for Cradle to Grave, only Oregon is the exception to this rule.
  • If there is violation, then everyone in the chain of events can be sited, the local AHJ decides based on the circumstances who get cited.

The result of the Model Ordinance is that Expensive Recycling Equipment was no longer needed, why I was chastised at the Manufactures Association. I showed contractors how they could comply for a few hundred dollars, not thousands. I gave out enough information that the average contractor could build his own equipment.

I just announced simple inexpensive equipment to meet the model ordinance, revealed plans that everyone with any talent could copy, published remediation basics so that contractors could have a guideline on how to build their own system. All of this information is free; I will only get orders from contractors who time is more valuable than the cost of the equipment.

Some contractors order their first unit from me, then copy and build their own the next time.

I made it obvious that the contractor being compliant is more important than money in my life. People who suggest otherwise are brain dead.
 
[*]Hot Water and Detergents are emulsifiers and should be treated the same (I did not create this, the AHJs did. Having a technical background, I could not argue the truth of this statement. I never dreamed I would be accused of creating this, which I was not until the Ron Machine got started).

So Ron & Tony do you still believe Robert created the idea that Hot Water & Detergents are emulsifiers and should be treated the same?
 
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