EPA Enforcement in 2012 Protects Communities From Harmful Pollution

[Tony Shelton]

Please allow me to put this in perspective Nigel. I am in the filter business. What we are a talking about here is just another form of filtration.

We filter a lot of office buildings. One unavoidable aspect of filtering office buildings is the inevitability of periodic construction in the building.

At least monthly we have customers with filters that have been subject to construction without notifying us. They get a super concentrated dump of drywall dust in them. It's no problem, our filters are designed to handle just about anything, so the only negative impact it has on us is the next cleaning might take a little bit longer.

Now, there ARE plenty of instances where we get calls in advance. The call goes something like this:

"Hello Tony, this is Joe from Joe's construction, we are going to be doing construction in building X over the next two months and the Property manager told us to call you first and let you know"

"Hi Joe, I'm glad you called, you guys need to pre-filter at the intakes with throwaway pleated filters and they need to be changed everyday during construction" (just saving myself about 25% more time on my next cleaning while costing them potentially hundreds)

Joe has no choice now. He turned the option over to me and I told him what my preference is and now he has to do it. The fact of the matter is their filtering has little effect on me or the system. My filters are designed to deal with a lot more than a normal construction event which is (in the air filter business) a lot more concentration than a pressure washing event in the water filtering business.

In short Nigel, a system designed to work even though this comes:



Isn't likely to fail because of this:



Why is there such a desire to elevate our runoff into the same category as industries who create pollution through chemical processes and then have to have NPDES permits to discharge SOME of their waste into the storm drains? Why are we so eager to bring unnecessary and unwarranted attention and regulation to ourselves?

This whole concept just boggles my mind.

Tony, In my opinion, this is one of the most active EPA/washwater discussions on PWI, a great deal of contractors would not openly discuss the subject, I have a feeling a great deal of contractors and website guests are tuning into this thread daily, thus my reference to it being a learning exercise.



I understand that Ron, wants to get to the bottom of this.

I initially indicated that most likely the installation in the video was for "incidentals", and advise any individual to seek the approval of the local AHJ.
To identifying its function and if permission would be granted for mobile contract cleaner wash water runoff from fuel pad pressure cleaning.

I never contacted Montgomery Department of Environment concerning that particular installation in the video , but prior communication with them advised that pressure cleaning wash water from surfaces such as those and similar (fuel stations, drive thrus, garages etc) with or without installations be directed to the sanitary sewer , which was exactly in line with what the Maryland State EPA official communicated, the only difference being the Montgomery DEP had more influence over their local POTW than the State over Montgomery's or any other with respect to this specific matter.




In some jurisdictions the local arm of the EPA have more teeth over the POTW's, but some other POTW's just dont want mobile wash contractors utilizing sanitary sewer piping on the property, and say that the wash water has to be transported to an in plant discharge point, with test results.



Thats why I have been asking Ron these questions, and am interested in hearing his views.

what is your opinion of commercial properties that are "not built compliant" ?

What does "not built compliant" mean?

What is your opinion of a scenario where a mobile wash contractor picks up their generated wash water form one area of "compliant property", to avoid it reaching a storm drain (because of the volume of wash water produce and location of storm), and having to transfer the wash water to an area on property where it will comply with the CWA?

How do you suggest we handle instances where there are no property systems in place for the contractor to be compliant?

For example, where there is a graded in the drive thur "smack" to a STORM WATER INLET ,I know you mentioned earlier most likely I am wrong and that it "may not be storm inlet", but just for discussion , lets say I was correct,...........................you indicated your opinions about a responsible landscape discharge option, ..................so how would you suggest I handle my scenario???

 

[810f250]

Baltimore City Hall
100 North Holliday Street, Baltimore, MD
(410) 396-3100 ‎ · baltimorecity.gov
These Pollution folks are ok with regular powerwashing
Of course they want BMP practiced in highly greasy and oily areas

Pollution Division I have the Audio Filed

I have never worked/performed wash services or contacted Baltimore County Maryland officials.

Whom did you speak with? What department?, would you share this audio file with us or me.


What about Montgomery County Maryland and the installation in the video, its function, permitted use and my other questions.

Do you still require who I spoke with form Montgomery Maryland Department of Environment?

 

[Tony Shelton]

Sorry Tony, I guess it is because of my technical background and I say things that I think are taken for granted. Whenever I do this bring me to task.

To find documentation on Hot Water being an emulsifier go to Google or EPA.gov and search on: "emulsifier" "Hot Water". Be sure and put the quotes where I did.

Also, remember that if you wash your dishes or clothes in hot water they are cleaned better. If you add detergent then they clean even better.

I was brought to task on this issue by the EPA, which I relented on because they were right.

Phoenix was the Hot Bed of controversy over this issue in the early 90s. A compromise was reached at 110F. Of course this was determined by an attorney!

Robert, I did as you suggested and there are 29 instances of "emulsifier" "hot water" on the EPA site. After that there are many uses of each word "emulsifier" but not in context of "hot water".

Of ALL 29 instances there is only ONE that states that hot water alone is an emulsifier, Robert. That instance is YOURS. It comes from YOUR Ft Worth BMP's.

Here, take a look for yourself:

 

[Robert Hinderliter]

I think you would have issue with Parking lot Robert, but hey you know your city better than I do.

At this time we are below the size that requires a SWPPP for the parking area, we had to submit this information to the City of Fort Worth.

 

[Clean County PW]

Very interesting thread.

Hey Nigel- Just an opinion- I wouldn't be putting out any info of personal contacts for others to call up to have them bring your name or company in the mix unless your Ok with that--just sayin.

 

[Ron Musgraves]

At this time we are below the size that requires a SWPPP for the parking area, we had to submit this information to the City of Fort Worth.

So your allowed to Pollute ?

 

[810f250]

Please allow me to put this in perspective Nigel. I am in the filter business. What we are a talking about here is just another form of filtration.

We filter a lot of office buildings. One unavoidable aspect of filtering office buildings is the inevitability of periodic construction in the building.

At least monthly we have customers with filters that have been subject to construction without notifying us. They get a super concentrated dump of drywall dust in them. It's no problem, our filters are designed to handle just about anything, so the only negative impact it has on us is the next cleaning might take a little bit longer.

Now, there ARE plenty of instances where we get calls in advance. The call goes something like this:

"Hello Tony, this is Joe from Joe's construction, we are going to be doing construction in building X over the next two months and the Property manager told us to call you first and let you know"

"Hi Joe, I'm glad you called, you guys need to pre-filter at the intakes with throwaway pleated filters and they need to be changed everyday during construction" (just saving myself about 25% more time on my next cleaning while costing them potentially hundreds)

Joe has no choice now. He turned the option over to me and I told him what my preference is and now he has to do it. The fact of the matter is their filtering has little effect on me or the system. My filters are designed to deal with a lot more than a normal construction event which is (in the air filter business) a lot more concentration than a pressure washing event in the water filtering business.

In short Nigel, a system designed to work even though this comes:

View attachment 22865

Isn't likely to fail because of this:

View attachment 22866

Why is there such a desire to elevate our runoff into the same category as industries who create pollution through chemical processes and then have to have NPDES permits to discharge SOME of their waste into the storm drains? Why are we so eager to bring unnecessary and unwarranted attention and regulation to ourselves?

This whole concept just boggles my mind.

Tony, I have no desire or intention "to elevate our runoff into the same category as industries who create pollution through chemical processes and then have to have NPDES permits to discharge SOME of their waste into the storm drains? Why are we so eager to bring unnecessary and unwarranted attention and regulation to ourselves? "

Just the opposite, but the CWA imparts limitations on operations , and so does the local AHJ's. (Is it always rationally practical???, honestly..... No)

I would prefer however to follow their guidelines/laws, than to explain, and or get technical with them on my own or with legal counsel. (The analogy of exceeding the posted speed limit on public roads and being stopped comes to mind)

Would I like the AHJ's to change their current view of our impact and implement more practical solutions?

A resounding YES.

Did John B ever return your call?

 

[Tony Shelton]

I have not been so lucky. I simply asked you to remove slanderous remarks the Jim made in his comments on the thread and you refused to do it. It has been 8 months now. I have not pursued it because my attorney said I can't do anything about it unless I have damages (lost account, etc) and the longer you leave it up there after being asked to remove it the better my case. Here is the slanderous comment I asked you to remove. It is a completely false statement:


garagecleaning 8 months ago
Nigel, I NEVER new how much crap was generated from a Drive Thru cleaning. Great Job and as always, great information. Don't let 1 person get you from stop posting this information.
I am sure if I dilute my cleaning with 1,000,000,000,000 gallons of water, it might ok? Please Tony, I have seen from your videos where your son was doing a drive thru and all of the waste went right into the storm. One day you will be fined and thats what you are afraid of. Being caught as a Polluter to waterways.

Nigel has removed this slanderous comment from Jim on his youtube page. Thank you Nigel.

 

[810f250]

Very interesting thread.

Hey Nigel- Just an opinion- I wouldn't be putting out any info of personal contacts for others to call up to have them bring your name or company in the mix unless your Ok with that--just sayin.

All the phone info is public and can be attained easily in my opinion, I see your point however, and I would dislike it very much if I was intentionally or otherwise misrepresented by others communicating with them.

Nigel has removed this slanderous comment from Jim on his youtube page. Thank you Nigel.

As promised, and immediately after ending our conversion, our phone communication cleared up more things than these 10 pages of post have done thus far, and we have somewhat of a better understand of our issues and position.

 

[Ron Musgraves]

yes when Finished, I spoke to the Pollution control division. I have learned to work there first , if they are not aware or seem stupid I move on. MDE has been contacted, I will have no recorded calls with them until I receive permission. After I get permission to record for educational purpose I will post and give all numbers.
I used this as it was your area Code of Jurisdiction. That fastfood Place next door to your POB is nasty from goggle Maps. You should pay them a visit, theres a Day care Facility Next door. CDC I'm surprised has not sited them. Yeah I know you never thought this was a CDC violation?

I would find out how many units the CDC has for this, of course I never turn anyone in. Thats not my style, you how ever by contacting them can become a resource. Sometimes they will tell you they cannot recommend you, how ever like dirty dinning they have a daily report for violators. You can offer regular maint to these individuals sited, they of course never want this to happen again.

I have never worked/performed wash services or contacted Baltimore County Maryland officials.

Whom did you speak with? What department?, would you share this audio file with us or me.


What about Montgomery County Maryland and the installation in the video, its function, permitted use and my other questions.

Do you still require who I spoke with form Montgomery Maryland Department of Environment?

 

[Tony Shelton]

Tony, I have no desire or intention "to elevate our runoff into the same category as industries who create pollution through chemical processes and then have to have NPDES permits to discharge SOME of their waste into the storm drains? Why are we so eager to bring unnecessary and unwarranted attention and regulation to ourselves? "

Just the opposite, but the CWA imparts limitations on operations , and so does the local AHJ's. (Is it always rationally practical???, honestly..... No)

I would prefer however to follow their guidelines/laws, than to explain, and or get technical with them on my own or with legal counsel. (The analogy of exceeding the posted speed limit on public roads and being stopped comes to mind)

Would I like the AHJ's to change their current view of our impact and implement more practical solutions?

A resounding YES.

Did John B ever return your call?

I tried again today, got voicemail and left a message.

Nigel, have you ever read the original Clean Water Act from 1972? The whole think is about 200 pages long. In those two hundred pages you will be hard pressed to find anything that even remotely looks like the propaganda we are hearing today.

The goal of the clean water act was to clean up the nations streams, lakes, etc that had been polluted by industries pumping waste directly into the waterways. MILLIONS of gallons of waste.

The act allowed for SOME discharge into the waterways and it was monitored by way of PERMITS that not only allowed the industries to put some of the runoff into the waterways, but also gave the government the right to come in and audit.

Cities and states obtained permits to cover everything that wasn't specifically covered. For example, Monsanto has to have a permit, but Delco or Rahsco doesn't because of their size (according to Robert), so Robert is covered by the NPDES permit of the City of Ft Worth or the state (I am not familiar with their permit).

Just like any other industry, the city is allowed xx amount of discharge into the waterways by permit. In other words the permit ALLOWS them xx discharge. As long as they are falling within the parameters set by the federal EPA the EPA has NO JURISDICTION to fine them, OR YOU.

That is why our local SWA is so eager to get all their testing done early in the fiscal year so they can say they have met the minimal requirements and they don't have to worry about the EPA anymore till the next fiscal year!

The CWA did it's job. The waters are clean. Now the EPA is struggling to justify it's continued existence. If Romney had been elected it may have been toast by now. If Ron Paul had been elected it would most assuredly be gone. But with Obama, I'm sure we are in for at least another four years of this.

But even so, they are out of money. They aren't the slightest bit interested in the environment at this point, they are interested in bringing in fines. Are they interested in Rahsco? Are they interested in Ron? (and his two trucks lol) Are they interested in Scott and his few million per year contracts?

No. They are interested in Dow Chemical, Exxon and Dupont. It costs them more to prosecute guys like us than they can possibly recoup. So this entire campaign is in vain.

Many times there have been claims (mostly by Jim and Robert) that this contractor or that contractor has been fined for this or that, but despite my numerous requests no one has ever posted on of the fines for us to take a look at. It must be some kind of secret like Jim's $xx.xx garage jobs.

So I ask again, someone please post up an actual, ticket, judgement, or a fine where any power washer doing the normal type of cleaning that we do has ever been ticketed or fined.

And I ask you Nigel, please read the CWA in its entirety as I have. It won't take you long to realize what is really going on with it. I know the CWA has had changes over the years, and I've probably read most if not all of them. But the fact still remains that we ARE NOT and HAVE NOT EVER been their focus. That is why is is so important for us to paint ourselves as the environmental cleaners that we are and show that we have a net positive effect on the environment, even though there may have to be some tradeoffs along the way for us to get the job done (like the street sweeper exemption for example).

 

[810f250]

yes when Finished, I spoke to the Pollution control division. I have learned to work there first , if they are not aware or seem stupid I move on. MDE has been contacted, I will have no recorded calls with them until I receive permission. After I get permission to record for educational purpose I will post and give all numbers.
I used this as it was your area Code of Jurisdiction. That fastfood Place next door to your POB is nasty from goggle Maps. You should pay them a visit, theres a Day care Facility Next door. CDC I'm surprised has not sited them. Yeah I know you never thought this was a CDC violation?

I would find out how many units the CDC has for this, of course I never turn anyone in. Thats not my style, you how ever by contacting them can become a resource. Sometimes they will tell you they cannot recommend you, how ever like dirty dinning they have a daily report for violators. You can offer regular maint to these individuals sited, they of course never want this to happen again.

Pollution Control Division, note taken, but what do you say etc, I guess we will have to wait for the audio.

Which MDE do are you referring to, Maryland Department of Environment or Montgomery County Department of Environment?

Maryalnd's 301 area code is vast and this is my cell phone it covers numerous counties, you googled me , my POB is in Howard County Maryland, not Baltimore County..... wondered why you called Baltimore County.

A couple of places around POB is in need of mobile wash assistance asap, I doubt the CDC even has then on the radar, maybe the health department and that might be a roll of the dice.

No have not thought about CDC violation but have seen the Health Department in the papers.

 

[Ron Musgraves]

health Dept has no jurisdiction passed air curtain

Pollution Control Division, note taken, but what do you say etc, I guess we will have to wait for the audio.

Which MDE do are you referring to, Maryland Department of Environment or Montgomery County Department of Environment?

Maryalnd's 301 area code is vast and this is my cell phone it covers numerous counties, my POB is in Howard County Maryland, not Baltimore County..... so goggle me, wondered why you called Baltimore County.

A couple of places around POB is in need of mobile wash assistance asap, I doubt the CDC even has then on the radar, maybe the health department and that might be a roll of the dice.

No have not thought about CDC violation but have seen the Health Department in the papers.

 

[Ron Musgraves]

CDC will be a county dept

 

[Ron Musgraves]

Nigel, you always going to get the best answers here on wash water control, most guys here wrote the book. We actually washed for over 20 years and responsibly have the ability and technic to do this legally.

 

[810f250]

health Dept has no jurisdiction passed air curtain

Please explain, I am sure others don't understand, I have been in the kitchen of QSR facilities, and they were in and out of air curtains, or am I confusing that with Food Safety Inspection?

 

[810f250]

Nigel, you always going to get the best answers here on wash water control, most guys here wrote the book. We actually washed for over 20 years and responsibly have the ability and technic to do this legally.

I am all ears, been saying that form the get go, but how do I get my AHJ's to understand and not issue a warning or ticket form operations that they say is in violation.

Tony running out the door I saw your post will respond.

 

[Ron Musgraves]

Please explain, I am sure others don't understand, I have been in the kitchen of QSR facilities, and they were in and out of air curtains, or am I confusing that with Food Safety Inspection?

Normally the County Health dept never goes outside of a Eating or food prepping establishment. Past the Doors is another Dept authority , now can the health dept suggest or write a complaint to another dept? YES siting them will not happen, these people have to draw there lines someplace. So your county Health Dept often handles the exterior matters in the county. This is just how it works in most places , does it work that way in yours? Call and ask

 

[Robert Hinderliter]

So your allowed to Pollute ?

Of course not.

 

[Tony Shelton]

Nigel, I just got off the phone with Travis who returned my call instead of John.

Here are the highlights:

1) The units are specifically designed for rain runoff. Even the lowest model they have is more than capable of handling 1000 gallons per hour of runoff with no problem. (that's two 8gpm units running full blast)
2) They are designed for varying amounts of maintenance and it is up to the property owner to perform the maintenance.
3) If John told you the system could not be used for that it was only because that is not what the system was originally designed for, but, he admitted, that is exactly what it does (filter runoff).

It is like asking if you can clean a dog with a pressure washer. Sure, the pressure washer could handle it no problem, but that's not what it's designed for, so, as a pressure washer, I wouldn't recommend it.

Contact me if you would like to hear everything he said.

The bottom line is, the systems are DESIGNED to handle exactly what you are cleaning.
They are fully capable of handling the amounts you generate.

This is a gift.
It's not something we should refuse to take advantage of.