Certification (My Opinion)

P

Przrat

New member
For several years now I have been reading about certification.
There has not been one article yet that convinces me to invest the inflated amount of money and time it takes to enroll.

I have been cleaning hoods since 1988 and was "certified" then for about $400.00! It was a 2 1/2 day school. One day on disarming fire suppression systems, another on cleaning hoods and basic sales (classroom only) and the 1/2 day was a sales pitch on buying equipment and stuff from them. Just think, I got to pay them to try to sell me equipment. Talk about a win win situation for them! Bet the schools now still do that. Anyway, am I still certified? Did this Black Magic course count or was it a sham? If it was a sham, who is to say the ones now are not the same?

Another area is, who certifies the instructors and the schools? Maybe I could start a school. Let's see, $1500.00 per student by 20 students and they pay for their transportation, lodging and meals. What do I have to provide? A manual, my expertise, insurance, and an equipment company to oversell the poor bastards and I get a cut! HMMMM Plus I can intimidate the newbees with the fire codes. Looks pretty good to me. And if I can get real lucky I can get the fire codes to require a "certified company" to do the cleaning.

As an experienced person in this business I look for a return on my investment. Not words but a cash return. How can certification make a profit for me? Put money in my pocket. Lets see, the cost for the course, the lost labor time, the transportation, lodging and meals. Now the employees I sent can start their own business!
Considering the type of work, late hours, lousey working conditions and minimal benefits, how long does an average employee stay? Most are working from check to check. Some, however are good and last a few years. How much should I invest in them. With half a brain and knowledge of my customer base and " certification" they are off to a running start with their new business.

Here is another thought, could I start an "on line" certification school? Like the on line, "MINISTER FOR A DAY". A questionaire, a manual with pictures, and a certificate with a gold seal! WHO OR WHAT REGULATES THE SCHOOLS AND INSTRUCTORS?

I don't know about the rest of you but the schools look to be a money pit.

ED
 
One more thing, in the 15 years of hood cleaning, one, yes One, customer has asked me if I was certified. I told him yes. That was it. My customer base is mostly corporate and professional where they should ask for certification and do not! Mom and pop restaurants usually don't care.
 
Certification is worth something...

Author's Note: In order to answer this question or address the points that were made above I will have to appear that I am blatently advertising for my company. How else can I answer this question? So with that in mind.....

Dear Ed,

I agree with several points that you have made in the above post.

That is why we are taking a different approach to certification.

First, you get a lifetime membership in our Certified Hood & Duct Cleaners Association. This provides you with quarterly newsletters, e-mail updates of anything of importance in our industry, online bulletin board to communicate with others in the network, as well as a real person that will answer your questions when you call.

2nd. Our certification lasts as long as you are actively cleaning hoods. If you get out of the hood cleaning business, then your certification goes into an inactive status. Once inactive, you will have to attend a refresher course to get back up to speed with all of the changes in the codes and standards.

3rd. Our network of certified hood & duct cleaners are working together to go after national contracts. This gives us strength to go after restaurant chains that are being sold by Facilatec that 1 company can service all of their needs. For example, let's say that I am interested in cleaning 209 stores of a national chain franchise in a 12 state area. Obviously, I can get the ones in my area, but the owner wants a single group to take care of all of his stores. That is where our nationwide network of independent certified hood & duct cleaners comes in. You take the ones that you want and can handle, and the rest are distributed amongst our group members. This allows our member to increase his business, while helping the group at the same time.

4th. Our members directly benefit by us promoting them and supplying them with restaurants to clean. We recently attended the National Restaurant Association show and met with hundreds of restaurant owners who were interested in a network of certified hood cleaners helping them take care of their kitchen exhaust cleaning needs. I have personally called on numerous members in our network and have given them restaurants to clean. This directly affects their bottom lines.

5th. Whether you want to admit it or not, soon it will be mandatory that you have to be certified. Others like ourselves are trying to lead the pack in a standardized approach to this. Some have even proposed several sets of new standards to be included into the next NFPA 96 edition. Certification will happen; it is just a matter of time.

6th. Our membership is not a buyers club for us to sell you things. We are not in the business of selling equipment. Those who attend our training are free to purchase their equipment from any vendor that they choose. We are in the business of training and certifying hood & duct cleaners. We have even set up a process for you to get certified by taking a proctored exam (via librarian or other non-biased test administrator.) This saves you the cost of traveling, staying in a hotel, attending seminars and obtaining your expensive certificate that allows you to be certified for another year.

7th. Those who do the cleaning are required to be certified, not just the company owner. While it is nice that a company is certified, what does that really mean? If I go into a hospital, do I only want the director of nurses to be a registered nurse, or do I want the person sticking that needle in my butt to be a registered nurse. Same goes with a certified hood cleaner. If I am a store owner, I want the person doing the cleaning to be certified, not just his boss. Or at least, I want the person signing off on the job to be certified.

8th. What can I personally do to help your business? Call me. I'm a real person that will answer the phone and answer any questions that you have about how I can help you. Take a look at our mission statement; Serve, Teach, Build, Learn, Share & Grow.

9th. Currently our network covers 17 states and Ontario. Don't you think that by joining with us it helps you in your business? I've got a whole file of restaurants that were interested in having one of our members help them out, but unfortunately we don't have a member in their area yet.

10th. Our certification is based off of the standards put forth by the NFPA 96 2001 edition. We feel that it may not be perfect, but it is definitely heading in the right direction. Join with us and help change this standard to reflect the way that kitchen grease exhaust systems should be cleaned.

11th. We are an association made up of individual owner/operators. We aren't some big multi-national company with a board of directors and more money coming in than they know what to do with.

12th. Your customers may not have asked you yet if you are certified, but it is definitely going to happen. And you will have to prove it. We have lawyers, insurance companies, fire marshals, owners of large franchise chains asking us all the time for certification. The mom & pops will probably wait until their insurance company requires that they hire a certified company before asking, but that too will eventually happen.

I'm glad to hear that you are upset about certification. This means that you care and hopefully you will choose to get certified by one of the certification companies that are out there and do something to about it instead of sitting on the outside with no voice in the process.

I look forward to hearing your voice and including you in the process.

Rusty
 
Thanks for your input. I must be certified for life anyway, from Black Magic. Thats what they told me. All this sounds interesting for a rookie but I dont need someones help getting customers. I don't think corporate accounts are all they are cracked up to be. Sharing accounts with other cleaners makes me subject to their performance. No thank you.
I have enough newsletters and Emails. This board is fine with me.

Lets look at #5 This is what I mean. "Soon it will be manditory. We have proposed several sets of standards to the NFPA. "Sounds like a threat to me. Doesnt sound like help. The manditory applies to what? The fire codes. They aren't even manditory. They are recommendations. But you make it sound like I wont be able to do business without them.
As someone with years of experience
I would like the systems to be up to code.
I would like customers to have safe work areas around the fans. I would like affordable insurance.
I would like to be able to offer my employees affordable health insurance.
I would like chinese grease to come off on the first application.
I would like to have all the good jobs.
I would like customers who choose not to clean their restaurants on a proper schedule to be cited.
I would like an enviromentally safe degreaser that actually removes grease.
I would like to see a good manual and video for repairing machines.
Do you think you could add those items to your proposals to the NFPA?
And again, What or who gives you the authority to do this. Who says your way is the correct way. If you can push it into the codes, that will be your certification?
Sounds like group of businessmen looking to make money off the established hood cleaners with the promise of the jobs they cant do? Come on. I give jobs away too. The ones I dont want. If they are good, I will do my best to get them. Looks like leftovers to me.
And you appear to be a very persuasive salesman. Its a tough sell when you are dealing with an old, tired, cranky hood cleaner.
 
Do I agree with certification? When it can be uniform, yes I do. If nothing else it will weed out the part timers, who low ball jobs after I cleaned it up for them. I think it needs to go hand in hand with inspectors who actually know what they are looking at, and systems built with cleaning in mind, not systems installed no matter what. Otherwise it does nothing make anything safer.
 
well well

Nice point, pzart . He makes a valid point , any company could certify themselves just because the do hoods. Well Rusty, can't say I agree with you in your points.. you are the salesman and we are the customers. We dont know what your experience is cleaning hoods and even soo why is it that another preassure washing company needs to certify you ( for all I know you got your experience by reading the information on these boards ). I cant understand some of you out there . This board I believe is so we can network together and get ideas, help and advice. But some of you only want to dictate that you have to be certified to do this or certified to that or else get out of business because am having trouble getting business. You guys need to chill and realize that even if you are certified in whatever, the customer will still choose who he will do business with. I find it hard to believe that you have given work out like you said, unless is was not a significant amount, or 2 you didn't want it. I personally have to many things to worry about than be asking a pontential customer, if my fellow preassure washer is certifed in what ever they need doing or are doing. my 2 cents.
 
As I read these posts it brings to mind another point. The people that run these cetification courses are in it to make money. Thats a good thing. We all are. They have found another way to sell their service. Well good for them. But trying to use the main regulatory body (NFPA) against us is not so good. FIRST, get the food service industry to follow the already existing codes. Then if you can do that, look for other areas. Do not add code upon code upon code. They are nothing but words.
Look at it this way, if we all get certified, who is going to inspect our work to make sure it is up to the certification standards. The schools? Who is to say after certification I decide its too much trouble to do the job the recommended way. Same shit, different day.
 
Trying to have an uniform approach...

You all have made valid points about certification.

I'm not the one that wrote the code that has indicated that one must be certified. I'm just trying to provide an alternative to other certification options.

As far as giving away crumbs, and jobs that I don't want. I think you misunderstood what I typed.

I am helping our network get jobs in their areas. Some are individual stores; others are multi-store operations in their areas. Also, we are working on national contracts as well.

I have given jobs in CA, NV, KS, IL, IN, FL, PA, OH, MO so far. That doesn’t include the multi-state accounts that we are pursuing.

What I'm saying is this. We are just one small company operating out of TN. We were having some accounts taken from us not because we aren't doing a good job cleaning them, or taking care of our customers, but because Facilatec has sold them that they can clean all 209 stores. This is appealing to the higher ups despite the good cleanings that they get from us in Nashville. We don't have to ability to clean a 12 state network of stores, nor do we want the headache/hassle of organizing our company to clean all of them. But if I'm working with a company in OH who can pick up several, and a company in MO that can pick up several, and others in our network pick up the rest, then it becomes clear that our network can work as a team and help the higher ups see that independent hood cleaners working together can take care of all of their stores.

It's like playing football: Ed you may be the best quarter back ever to have played, but if you have no team members to throw the ball to, then you will not be able to play against the other players out there. What we are doing is building a team of individuals, some are "free agents" and others have been "drafted" and we are teaching them the ropes. Each member is responsible for his own actions and ability to clean hoods. Now as a team we can go up against the other major players in the industry. So far, it's working. (Sorry about the football analogy... I can't wait for the NFL to get going again...)

I don't want to run your business Ed or Cheesler or Bryan. And I don't want any of you running our hood cleaning business. But if we work together as a team, we have power together as a group.

Because when one of our members is able to get a multi-state bid on restaurants, then he knows that the other members of the team can help him out by covering the ones that he can't handle.

For example, Mr. Cheesler: We're working on a 47 store account located in CA, NV, AZ & WA. If you got the account would you be able to service all 47 stores in that large of a territory? Or would you like the ability to network with others to cover the restaurants in the other areas so that you could easily pick up the restaurants in your area?

You make an excellent point, if your quality isn't up to par, then the whole network may lose out on the deal. That is why we have set up standards that one must be doing in order to be certified by us. It's not just a piece of paper. It either means that you have been personally trained by us and set up with your own independent hood cleaning business or that you are running your business as a legitimate hood cleaning company doing the high quality of work that we (people who post on this board) always say we are trying to do.

That is also why we are taking a different approach to this. I would rather build a network slowly of extreme high quality hood cleaners, than lower my price to $200 (as some are doing) and take any one that sends in a check. To me there has to be a financial hurdle to leap over. This is one of the many steps that help prove that you are doing business correctly. I have the other steps listed on our website if anyone is interested.

I am truly trying to make certification MEAN something, not just a piece of paper that ultimately is meaningless without a uniform approach and standards to back it up.

Let me make this point--- I AM NOT GOING TO MAKE YOU GET CERTIFIED!

I am simply offering an alternative to what currently exists and helping people grow their businesses using correct technique and sound business practices.

We are trying to establish a uniform approach to certification and have been leading the industry recently with innovative ideas and concepts that we were able to bring to fruition quicker than our slower competitors.

We are the first REAL competition that the industry has had regarding certification since the early arguments first began back in the early 90's.

While it's true that I've only cleaned a few hoods so that I can have a basic understanding of the process, know that this is our family business and all aspects of it will eventually depend on me and I am personally involved. Roger specializes in the cleaning techniques, I with all aspects of creating a network or high quality hood cleaners with a common goal.

That's why we have surrounded ourselves with industry leaders who also have the same approach in mind. That is why we have personally trained others the proper techniques and sound business practices that have allowed them to thrive.

Those who know me know how dedicated to this industry that I am. I practically eat, sleep & breathe this business 24/7, as I am sure that many of the owner/operators that post here do as well.

There is a drive in the smaller independent companies that we are trying to harness to provide better hood cleaning around the country.

Now let me step down off my soap box and let the others out there let their voice be heard on this important topic.

Rusty
 
OK you are trying to use the NFPA codes with your proposals to help sell your product, certification. Why must you use them to try to force us to get certification? Why not just sell your schooling and leave the NFPA out of it?
ED
 
Just keep in mind everyone, that the NFPA, as good a code that it is, is only recommendations created by people with financial intrests at stake. California is on the verge of dropping NFPA and going with ICC. (As are many states) Personally I think this is 10 steps backwards. It is not an industry driven code it is a fire official and building official code that accepts input from the industry but the industry does not vote on considerations. If ICC is selected by your States Fire Marshall this whole line of rhetoric is mute, and then IT WILL BE THE CODE and it WILL BE ENFORCED, because it was written and voted upon by the people that will enforce it.
 
customer

The codes maybe the right step, but still. Let me tell you a little story. The other day I went by a chinese restaurant to see about doing some business for them, . Fine according to them I was to expensive for them in other areas, finally they point me to their hoods, 3 fans and 3 crowns. I look and at the system and it appears that some one did something about 4 to 5 months ago. Also in several spots i see black carbon from 3 different times according to customer the crown caught fire. Can you picture that. Well after I bid the hoods they thing am to much, which I say fine, but the shocker is when they tell me that they are paying a company 45 dollars every cleaning. I explain to the customer that is not cleaned to the metal and they still dont care and say to me that is all been inspected by the firemarshall and it passed? wow, o yes it looks like some of the jobs bryan does, and it was done 3 days before and 2 days after fire marshall inspected. What a shock that it passed, . He must have gotten lunch for free. This goes back to the saying, is good getting certified but why, where is the money. The customer will still pick who they want and will ignore the warnings because enforcing anything on cleaners wont work. It has to be enforced on the customers for it to work.
 
What does certification mean?

I am using the word certified to separate those that are on our network vs those that are not. We use certification as a way to present a uniform approach to cleaning using the NFPA 96 as a basic understanding of the approach that should be used in cleaning exhaust systems.

I didn't write the NFPA although I agree with Grant that it is way better than the ICC codes.

We are modeling our certification after the way that Nevada currently does theirs. It's definitely not perfect but it is a beginning and a place that we can all agree is working to some degree.

Also I agree that enforcement is sporatic but that is where grouping together comes in. We can educate the fire marshals (which we are), insurance companies (which we are) and the cleaners (which we are).

We are developing a red tag system that seems to be working in some areas. Once a system has been noted (by the fire extinguishing company) not to be cleaned to bare metal it is red tagged and the owner has 30 days to have it cleaned. If it is not cleaned to bare metal, then they are turned over to the fire marshal who is enforcing this set up. So far we are having success in our test market and hope to have something like this in all of our areas that are covered by our network.

I agree with Chessler that educating the customers is helping. The mom and pops will only agree to it when there is no other choice. The only way that we can get the mom and pops on board is by having their insurance companies know the difference between just having it cleaned and having it cleaned properly.

Understand once again that I am not forcing anyone to become certified. I am simply helping those who are interested by linking up together and using certification as a uniform means to accomplish this goal.

What other ideas does anyone have that we could use to educate the restaurant owners, insurance companies and fire marshals?

What would you like seen done?

Answering questions like this and working as a group gives your voice more power than just complaining about it on a bulletin board. Working with us allows us to do something instead of listing restaurant after restaurant that hasn't been properly cleaned.
 
You are absolutely right. It goes on like that all over the place. Will the ICC change that? I don't know. I hope with more official input for the code, it will create better informed inspectors. Also typically it is industry driven regulations that require certification and governmental regulations do not.
 
Certification ( yawn )

I think it is all a mute point , until there is some uniform enforcement. ( what we need is more government ) :(

I am certified through PWNA, and I only did it to be able to bid a particular job. They only wanted certified cleaners from IKECA and PWNA to bid job. Didnt get the job .

But the sad truth is no one cares if your certified or not. What they care about is Insurance limits, W/C , references and quality of work. This criteria keeps you in the game.

Education and continued education keeps a person abreast with the industry. If you are serious about your profession you will improve yourself.

Ed, I went thru Black Magic's school in 1987. LOL Looking back, what a hoot. I was in a transitation time in my life looking for a new career. I still have the old L&A hotwater unit in my shop. Its just an overgrown door stop now.
 
What gives you a private industry person any authority or right to "red tag" or require that it be cleaned in 30 days.
If someone came into my business, invited or not, and told me they were red tagging with no authority to that whatsoever, I would laugh as they picked themselves off the pavement to scurry away.
 
The Fire Inspectors are the only ones who can RED TAG a system and the mention of those words will turn a good customer into fear and shock. The account would be lost if those tactics are used.

Our job is to clean the system as to those standards that we are paid to preform. If the system is cleaned, then we have no problem. Any subjective inspection and critic should not be considered part of our function as cleaners. We can't do it all and be liable for the everything. Once you set yourself up as the expert, you open yourself up to a new world-I am not sure we want that. I am a cleaner, not end all within this market.

I feel the problem sets with the AHJ's, they have no accountability for loss. The AHJ's are not in the lawyer cross hairs & have no big pockets-and are immune to litigation(Fire Dept).

David
 
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red tagging

Oh man, I if red tagged one hood system it would be like shooting myself in the foot. In this business most of the managers know each other, even if they work someplace else. Common.. not good. You dont police the cleaners first , you start with the customer. That is the proper way to go if you want to see a change out there.
 
police

The govermantal agancies have to do that work not us. Now if you are talking NETWORKING only, now that is something that all of us would be interested in. It puts money on our table, so we can give our families and the ones that work for us the way to take care of them, by staying employeed.
 
Networking is good, that is what is great about the BBS's.
This whole national service company (weather using subs or not)is a joke, everytime one of these companies rolls into town with all there hype gets the small local companies worried because they wont prescribe to the system and join thier club. But remember what has happened to all the little companies that have sold out to the huge companies like MPI, SK etc...that wanted to service the world. Late payments, no local service satisfaction, prohibitively hign prices for the restaurant etc... it happens everytime. When we get a call from these companies, we listen to what they have to say and then tell them "No Thanks" The customers have been screwed enough by these National companies and organizations. The big chains know that they are dealing with local companies through a national "Billing Center" and what someone is proposing here is only slightly different and it wont fly for long either.
 
Red Tagging...

The cleaner isn't the one who red tags.

It is the fire extinguisher servicing company (working in conjunction with the local AHJ) that is red tagging the system that it requires cleaning. They then suggest several companies that are reputable at cleaning the exhaust systems properly. They have 30 days to get it cleaned.

The owner then contacts one of the cleaners and the system is cleaned. Then the fire extinguisher company returns re-inspects the fire extinguisher system, verifies that the system was cleaned properly, removes the red tag and goes on.

This system is working (in our test market) and we now have Asian restaurants on a 1-2 months cleaning frequency which prevents the huge cleaning mess of "it was cleaned last year for $40".

Is the system perfect? No.

Does it work? Absolutely.

Our network is simply brain storming and coming up with better ideas to try and fix the problems. If you have better solutions let's hear them.

As Grant mentioned this is the power of this bulletin board.

*****************************************(next topic)

Now as far as the topic of 'central billing' goes, that is not what I am proposing. Each individual member of our group is responsible for maintaining their quality of work.

Our members aren't selling out to us. We don't own them, we don't run them, and we aren't involved in their daily business operations. They aren't our subs.

We don't own them or control how they run their business.

They bill for the work that they have performed and they get paid from the company that they cleaned.

What we are proposing is that the smaller owner/operators usually do a higher quality job and take better care of their customers. These are the type of people that we are interested in having in our network.

I don't want just anyone who shows up with their money and wants certification from our company. I want the kind of company that already has a proven track record of providing the type of service that the members of this board discuss doing all the time.

Quality-control consist of customer satisfaction. If they aren't satisfied then the accounts go to someone who can provide the level of customer satisfaction that is required to keep our customers happy.

I get a ONE-TIME lead fee of $50 for each restaurant that I have provided them with, that they clean. The rest for as long as they have them as a customer is 100% theirs to keep.

So I only get paid when they get paid. How much more simple can it get. You are already paying your sales people commissions on leads that they generate.

You will simply be networking with other high quality hood cleaners around the country that have the same vision and provide the same level of service to their customers.

Rusty
 
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