To Install or Not to Install?

Phil Ackland

KEC Expert
Hello all.

The following is an excerpt from the Cleaning and Certification Manual. I came across it while doing a final check on the next edition that is coming out shortly.

Thoughts?

Phil


Editorial Comment To Install or Not to Install?
There are some exhaust cleaners who feel that installing access panels is outside the duties of a cleaner. They feel, (and they are correct) that it is the responsibility of the owner to see that these panels are installed. In addition, installing access may make them liable if there is a fire and there is a problem with the access panel. If a panel is installed improperly (not according to local Fire Code) then there could be some repercussions. Properly installing UL Listed access panels protects you from liability.
The reason for listing a product with the Underwriters Laboratory is only partly to have it tested. The lesser known, but more valuable aspect from the stand point of the product manufacturer is that once listed UL then takes a degree of liability for the product, which protects both the manufacturer and the installer. So, if you use a UL listed access panel and install it according to the instructions, you will not be held liable for the installation.
Unfortunately, some cleaners see installing access as a negative, because now there is more area to clean, which takes time and costs money. In addition, it is easier to check to see if they did a complete cleaning. If they can put the owner to sleep with the assumption that they are cleaning the whole system they can make some easy money. This industry has been plagued by this mentality for many years.



An even greater obstacle is the restaurant owner, who in a large majority of cases, does not care about this service. They think only with their wallets. Many corporations set up a manager’s bonus based on the money they save, and preventative maintenance is traditionally one of the first items to be ignored. So, if a vent cleaner comes in and claims to clean the system for $95.00 and another cleaner tells the manager, he needs 4 access panels and the job will take 6 hours and cost $500.00 to be done properly, who do you think the manager is going to hire?
Of course when there is a fire, the restaurant management will get sanctimonious and claim they thought they were getting a proper job, from a professional company, that was doing everything exactly as the Codes require. Then insurance companies descend on the cleaner as the bad guy.
For the most part cleaners have to react to the market. They are held in little regard when they attempt to voice the need for increased access and accountability. In many cases, the restaurants are getting what they pay for which is very little, but then they deserve what they get.
Whether you install access or not, all cleaners have to inform the owner, in writing, of the need for the access and notification that there is a risk of potential fire due to the fact that parts of the system can not be cleaned. If the owner understands this, then you have reduced your liability. It is strongly suggested that you get their signature on any written warning and keep a copy.

A point of interest: The author was recently engaged by an insurance company to offer expert testimony in a fire loss case that involved a vent cleaner in the Midwest U.S. Although it was obvious that the vent cleaner was not to blame for the fire, the insurance company was made to pay out a six-figure amount. This was mainly because it was felt that the vent cleaner was responsible for notifying the owner IN WRITING, of the fact that the ductwork and access provisions were not up to Code.
 
lets see. Notify the consumer in writing that there is unaccessible areas in the system that needs to addressed. Make sure that you explain the reason for this, not only for access to inaccessable areas, but also they are needed for the proper cleaning and maintanence to the ENTIRE system. These access panels are a must, and not hard to install. The monitory part of the discussion is not an issue when you want to clean the system properly. But like was mentioned, these companies are think with the wallet and could care less about these parts of the system. All they do is on the invoice, write in there are unaccessible areas, and leave it at that. This is why we need to get some authority in place to make sure that this is done properly. Bad boys, bad boys, what you going to do, what you going to do when they come for you. lol
 
The monitory part of the discussion is not an issue when you want to clean the system properly. But like was mentioned, these companies are think with the wallet and could care less about these parts of the system. lol

The monitary issue is that the restaurant does not want to spend the money.
The mentality issue is that when I get a new customer and tell them that access panels needto be installed in order to access all areas of the system in order to properly clean the system...the response is typically, we have never had any problem, the last company didn't need them why do you.
We show them where, we tell them why and ultimately they decide to do one of three things:
A) Have us install the panels (1%)
B) Have someone else (or there own people) install the panels (4%)
C) Forget the whole conversation (95%)

Document everything!
 
I don't give them much of a chance to say no when it comes down to it. I explain just as you why, where, and how much (one time charge). I install access panels in 90% of my jobs when needed. I explain to them when my sticker goes on a hood, I am ultimately reponsable for that system, cleaning, maintaining, and making sure that all parts are cleaned to bear metal. If your giving them the chance to say NO, they are most likely to. If you don't give them a chance, then they can't say NO. I don't know what you are charging to put the access panels in, and maybe your like the one around here that I know, charging $175 for hinges and $250 for access panels. That is per hinge and access panel. We all know access panels are not that expensive and hinges don't run to bad on price. Why charge such an outrageous price. 10-15 minutes extra per is not worth it to a customer if your going to charge an outrageous price for it. Even though it is only a one time charge. But like said above, that just means that your going to have to take more time to clean that system, and that might not be worth it to you. I charge a very reasonable rate for these services, 90% of them do it.
 
The $1,000,000.00 Question
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the AHJ ultimately make the decision as to what is code and what isn't.

Most KEC follow and cite the NFPA #96 as law, but technically isn't the NFPA Fire Code #96 merely recommendations.

What needs to happen ultimately is that all the AHJ get on same page and truly identify what's what.

I think the truth of the matter is "most KEC" don't know who their AHJ is and they just try to do what the NFPA #96 says and call it a day.

One local fire marshall told us that the exhaust fan motor cover had to be removed and all the grease around the fan bearings and housings had to be cleaned by hand until grease had been removed...that was our AHJ.

I think the main point is to have KEC document the need to CYA and to use UL access panels to also CYA.
 
NFPA 96 just the same as the I Codes are a set of recommendations until it is adopted by a state, then it becomes a part of that states fire code. Each county, city or local jurisdiction can also adopt or modify (as long as it is more strict than the state level) it own version of NFPA 96 or the I Codes.
The installation of access panels at the time of construction fall under the mechanical code.
 
I don't give them much of a chance to say no when it comes down to it. I explain just as you why, where, and how much (one time charge). I install access panels in 90% of my jobs when needed. I explain to them when my sticker goes on a hood, I am ultimately reponsable for that system, cleaning, maintaining, and making sure that all parts are cleaned to bear metal. If your giving them the chance to say NO, they are most likely to. If you don't give them a chance, then they can't say NO.


This is the best approach. It is your responsibility as the cleaner, especially a certifed cleaner, to perform your service to the highest level possible. Make the access happen, you are the professional, and they are buying your services. If the customer will not allow you to do your job right, then they should find someone else. Educating them of the risk involved with avoiding a proper service will usually close the deal. If it doesn't, then they are shopping for the wrong kind of service. If you think, walk, and talk professional they will respect your advice.
 
Often times a hood cleaner will use inaccessible areas as an excuse not to do his job correctly. Blaming it on the customer's unwillingness to pay for the access, does not limit your liability. It is the same as when a customer has a wood burning system, but does not want to have the system inspected and cleaned every 30 days. NFPA 96 is very clear on both issues.

nfpa96accesslj1.jpg
 
So I take it that you "gentlemen" agree that there should either be access or tell'm in writing.

Many words. Little speech. You all can do better.

I like to let the pictures do the talking. Here are some photos of a system that was recently cleaned. It looks like access is properly installed on this system, yet the kitchen exhaust cleaner either could not find the access, or simply neglected it.

The first step is getting the access installed, but as you can see from these pictures, sometimes it doesn't matter how much is access is installed, some hood cleaning companies just don't care, certified or not.

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Sorry Phil, I don't write books;).

Short and simple. Access is needed to remove grease. If there is no access, the grease does not get removed. If you don't install panels, hire someone to do it for you....it needs to be done one way or the other. And yes, if they don't allow them to be installed, document the need, and have them sign refusing the recommendation.
 
Lets ask the guru. We all can do better. If you install access, clean all access to bare metal, do it within 90% of your jobs, how do we do it better? There are four of us here saying access is a must no matter what, and we install them, and clean the neglected areas that have been building up for years and years from other so called cleaners that can talk, but when it comes down to it, they don't. We all know companies like this, because all the certification is taking a test, paying your money, and not checking even new companies to make sure that they are properly cleaning the system. If your going to certify so many, why are you not going to put in place a verifing system to make sure that all those companies using your or someone elses certification are properly doing the job? Lets see the certifing bodies do a better job. Not just charge for the certification, but also follow up on the so called certified companies, exceptally the ones that are using employees, and make sure that they are properly doing what they say they are, and suppose to be doing. That would help tremindously on bring the reputation of our profession up. It may takes years to weed these companies, and might only take 6 months for others, but we need to get the ones that are not doing their jobs out of the business and make sure if you are going to do this job, that you are doing it correctly. Not just words.

Many words. Little speech. You all can do better.[/QUOTE]
 
Pulse

That is one thing I like about exhaust cleaners. They have a pulse (at least some of them). As always nice pictures Chris, I like your "slide show."

By "Doing Better" I meant "What can we (you) do about it?" (about making the restaurant do it -- about telling the AHJ -- about telling the world that without it the system (see Chris) is not being cleaned and poses a fire hazard) That's the "Doing Better". -- Old question -- still in need of an answer.

The inroads I am making with the insurance and fire departments continues to grow. Both NFPA and ICC will be carrying some of my manuals in their catalogue. We have a series of seminars (mostly on Fire Investigation in Exhaust Systems) coming over the next six months (I think they are posted on my website www.philackland.com )

What you might be interested in knowing is we have created an online tele-seminar series -- Phil Ackland Interviews...

So far we have lined up Dr. John DeHaan, Dave Icove, Dr. Vytos Babrauskos and many more. Check these guys out on the web -- Pretty Impressinve stuff!


All that said, the hope continues to be that we (and I mean all of you who are trying) will finally get the chance to communicate our concerns about this (access) hazard, and many others.

Keep me posted.
 
How about forming a group of individuals dedicated to improving the industries standards and lobbying in a collective voice to certifying bodies, NFPA, legislature, insurance companies, local AHJ, national restaurant associations, etc.

Who is already doing this supposedly....Phil Ackland? Who wants to do this...Grease Police Founders? Not sure about IKECA and others?

Sounds like a group effort in the making if people can work for a cause that's bigger than themselves.
 
Scott, Why dont we see more advertisement from you in the vendor areas.

This is probably the first greaser BBS on the net and most popular.

You should take advantage or the free advertisement.

Your guys will definitly enjoy knowing about the products you offer.
 
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