Hood Cleaning School

What would it take?

Grant,

If one could only start a hood cleaning business overnight and have the number of clients that you have.

At what level does a beginner have to start at? It starts with your first client.

How many restaurants would it take for you to realize that this program works?

It doesn't matter what I say or how successful our clients are, you still wouldn't believe it.

It would seem that in order to be successful one would have to have about 200 clients overnight.

Where does one get this overnight success from Grant?

The way you eat an elephant is one bite at a time.

Don't you get it that he is beginning a new career, having success and building on it. Not just a new career but a dream of being a successful small business owner.

So while you sit back and look at your hood cleaning empire that has taken you years to build up, realize that not everyone can get 200 clients overnight, hire 10 people, and start a multi-million dollar business overnight.

We have already gotten him 5 restaurants to clean, he has gotten himself 23 and this is in his 2nd week of business. Not to mention, unlike you, he isn't having to split his hard earned monies with employees, secretaries, salesmen, paying lease on office space, equipment, not paying FICA taxes or worker's comp. insurance.

Is it easy to do this business? No
Can it be done? Yes
Is it easier with someone helping you? Yes

Am I the only one that sees that you must start with 1 restaurant and build your business adding 1 more restaurant at a time until you have a number that will provide you the income that you want.

Please tell me Grant and David, what would prove to you that we are successful. I think that no matter how successful we are that it won't be enough to satisfy your cynical attitudes toward new guys in this business.

You would rather give away free advice to people that have had no formal training and then complain about how crappy of a job the previous hood cleaner (the ones who got free advice from a computer bulletin board) did and how great your company did by coming in charging 10x the value of the job and saving the day. That only your company is even remotely capable of cleaning exhaust systems to the NFPA 96 standards.

Our students succeed by providng a higher quality service and better customer satisfaction than you are with your motley crews that show up every month.

I have been mighty patient with this board's circular logic and tried to provide sound arguments to your (the board's) ridiculous notion that those who post on this board are the only ones that know how to clean hoods and everybody else is doing inferior work.

Whether you agree or not, we now have a presence in 14 states are are growing everyday by providing a service that people want and restaurants need. By raising the level of service that our clients receive our business owners are finding success in their areas.

So let's summarize the board's arguments put forth so far:

1. It's impossible-- therefore it must be a scam.
2. It cost too much-- therefore it must be a scam.
3. You have no credibility-- therefore it must be a scam.
4. You use inferior equipment-- therefore it must be a scam.

If we are a scam, how come we have so many satisfied business owners?

If we are a scam, how come we have been in business for so many years?

If we are a scam, how come we teach NFPA 96 2001 standards?

If we are a scam, how come we teach using Phil Ackland's Certification Manual?

If we are a scam, how come we actually take our students to real restaurants and teach them how to clean them in real time situations?

If we are a scam, how come the BBB has had our company listed for 10 years without any complaints?

If we are a scam, how come our business owners are kicking their competition's butt in their markets?

If we are a scam, how come anyone of you is welcome to come to Nashville and meet me in person, and ask me any questions, or call me on the phone and talk directly with me?

****************************************************

Grant and David, you just don't get it.

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Now I have some questions:

1. Is there anyone reading this that agrees with the arguments put forth so far?

2. Is there anyone reading this board that started out as a 1 man operation and has built your business? Either in power wasing or hood cleaning?

3. Why is it so unbelievable that 1 man can clean a hood?

4. Am I the only one that disagrees with David and Grant?

Thanks in advance...

PS. We're insured with $1mil liability when we clean exhaust systems, which by the way, is our primary source of income-not selling business opportunities.

The BBB does have credibility.
Phil Ackland's manuals have credibility.
A yellow page ad does add credibility.
I guess that some people (US) make safety a bigger deal, and take steps to make sure that one doesn't fall off of the roof.

We're licensed by the state of TN to clean kitchen exhaust systems.
 
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1. Is there anyone reading this that agrees with the arguments put forth so far?

I would have to agree with the masses on this one, David and Grant are right.

2. Is there anyone reading this board that started out as a 1 man operation and has built your business? Either in power wasing or hood cleaning?

I started out, and continue to operate as a 1 CREW operation, and I have built my business in hood cleaning. I work my butt off, I do a great job, I have an excellent reputation with my customers and two of the big companies in this area sub contract some of thier jobs to me when they are too busy. Yes I have built the business and I pay my bills and my helper, but fortunately I am single and don't have a family to support because unless I start networking my time by adding crews I will never make a million dollars. You try to make it sound so simple for one person to make it rich. I think that is why everyone thinks you are a scam artist.


3. Why is it so unbelievable that 1 man can clean a hood?

It is not unbelievable that one man can clean a hood. It is also extremely unsafe and slow. Why would anyone want to risk thier neck without a safety net? Why would anyone want to take twice as long to do a job? Two men (or women for that matter) can do a better job faster and get to a second and sometimes a third job site in one night.

4. Am I the only one that disagrees with David and Grant?

Judging by the majority of the posts I think so!


The BBB does have credibility.

With who?

Phil Ackland's manuals have credibility.

Absolutely! But what makes you an expert at teaching his methods?

A yellow page ad does add credibility.

With who? Grab any yellow pages and you will find shams, unethical companies and pure bogus claims. No certification required for placing an ad here!


I guess that some people make safety a bigger deal, and take steps to make sure that one doesn't fall off of the roof.

YES! and only a moron can't see the reasoning for that!

We're licensed by the state of TN to clean kitchen exhaust systems.

Licensed as what? a HVAC contractor? Or does TN specifically license exhaust cleaners? Does TN license vocational schools?

And finally, what about the questions you choose to not answer by dancing around with wordy empty responses...

Under what authority are you able to certify exhaust cleaners?
Who certified you or anyone at your school/hood cleaning business to do either?
And why is it that not one of your graduates will atest to what you have given them in exchange for large amounts of money? For all we know your list of graduates could be completely fabricated with pictures of your friends claiming to be the next millionaire!
 
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Part of the problem is that you gloss and roll over the key question. That being that you can't clean 90% of the food service units with one person within the window of closing and start up kitchen personnel with one man let alone your complement of equipment. Now please a child with Dove soap could clean a Waffle House. Now if a person has several years under his belt and he is able to pick and choose this could work at times.

We have cleaned units with one person , whoever it was because of unrelated issues. The second man on the crew gives the manager the ability to do those jobs that require two people like a 24 ft island unit with 48 ft vertical run with doors. You can't clean this with one person, I don't care what spin you put on it. Your one person crew would still be on the roof when the staff arrived at 5 AM.



David
 
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How credible can a company look when they show up at a restaurant to do a large job with one man? If I were a restaurant manager stuck on the night shift some of my concerns would be (in no particular order)....

How soon will this guy be done so I can go home?

How can one guy do a good job?

How soon will this guy be done so I can go home?

What if this guy electrocutes himself on my roof? I wont know for hours!

How soon will this guy be done so I can go home?

and finally...

How soon will this guy be done so I can go home?
 
Who certified IKECA to certify hood cleaners?

Who certified PWNA to certify hood cleaners?

Who certified Phil Ackland to certify hood cleaners?

Where did these organizations start? Who certifies them to certify others?

We follow the same rules that IKECA and PWNA used when they started their organizations.

We use Phil Ackland's text book as our primary certification manual.



Now obviously not every single hood can be cleaned with 1 person. But I bet you'd be surprised at how many can be cleaned with 1 person.

If it's impossible to clean exhaust systems with 1 person, how come we do it everyday?

If it takes us so much longer to clean these hoods how come we don't get fired for taking too long?

How is it that we've never gotten injuried cleaning exhaust systems?
 
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Both IKECA and PWNA certify hood cleaners but both organizations are associations made up of members from many companies. There is a good concensus from many opinions that make there programs less likely to be biased. These associations are not a company that cleans exhaust systems they are many companies that clean exhaust systems.

Phil Ackland has been doing it longer and better than most if not all cleaners out there. He is the recognized expert and very few if any posess the knowledge that he has assembled over the years.

"We use Phil Ackland's text book as our primary certification manual."
From what I can tell thats about the only credible thing you do!

"Now obviously not every single hood can be cleaned with 1 person. But I bet you'd be surprised at how many can be cleaned with 1 person. "
Yeah, and I can take my car to the car wash and watch three guys wash it in 10 minutes, so why would I want one guy to do it if it will take him 30 minutes?

"If it's impossible to clean exhaust systems with 1 person, how come we do it everyday?"
ITS NOT IMPOSSIBLE...ITS IMPRACTICAL!


"If it takes us so much longer to clean these hoods how come we don't get fired for taking too long"
If you are doing such a great job in so much less time then everyone else, you must be rolling in the dough...so why are you trying to take money away from people who don't know better?

"How is it that we've never gotten injuried cleaning exhaust systems?"
YET!

"The people that laugh and point at us, will one day be suprised to find that one of our students has moved into their area and done a clean sweep on their clients."
In our major metropolitan area (Los Angeles) there are more companies than you can shake a stick at, with new guys starting up all the time, but the failure rate is higher than the usual SBA reported failure rate of 80% in the first year!
 
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Who Made Who, Who Made You.......

So let met get this straight---

IKECA started and certified themselves.

PWNA started and certified themselves.

Phil Ackland invented the whole concept of certification. Wrote the NFPA 96 codes, wrote the only certification manual that exists, and just happened to WRITE both the IKECA and PWNA certification exams.

Where does it say in the NFPA 96 that I can't certify people to clean kitchen exhaust systems per NFPA 96 standards from Advanced Cleaning Systems.

I never said that NFPA certified me (which they don't). But they don't say that I can't teach someone to their standards.

I never said that opening a hood cleaning business was easy, only that it can be done.

So my question to all of you is this:

If you were to design the ultimate hood cleaning school-- how would you do it?

How many days should the class be?
How many restaurants should be cleaned?
What should be included with the course?
How much would you charge for this entire course?
What equipment would you offer?
What textbooks would you use?
Who would you get your certification from?
Would you train using mock ups or at actual restaurants?

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It's easy for outsiders to look in and go, "GEE Whiz - you can't do that, THAT's IMPOSSIBLE, impracticle, takes too long, can't be done."

"Why we've been cleaning hoods OUR way for 500 years and by george, there's no other way in the WORLD to clean hoods, except the way that we do it."

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And just overlook the FACT that when IKECA was started it was made up of a club of Hood cleaning OWNERS who don't believe that each cleaner should be certified.

Not to mention that even Phil Ackland didn't agree with them and helped form PWNA (who doesn't even specialize in kitchen exhaust cleaning) but as a SIDE thought on how WE CAN MAKE MORE MONEY started offering kitchen exhaust cleaning certification.

So why should I be forced to join either IKECA or PWNA if I want to be certified?

Are they the end all- be all of kitchen exhaust certification?

Why can't we form our own network of Independent Certified Hood & Duct Cleaners who CHOOSE to join our organization? This organization is being made up of MANY hood cleaners with all different skills, from all different parts of the country, with many different ideas. So far we have representation from 14 states and within 3 weeks we will have representatives from 16 states(Why-- isn't that what IKECA and PWNA did when they started?)

I say it can be done. And anyone with enough fortitude to see the TRUTH in what I am saying will choose to join us.

We are truly the ONLY ALTERNATIVE to IKECA and PWNA. We offer our members a TRUE voice in how things are done.

I think that the conversation that is going back and forth on this forum is perhaps the only decent information that I've seen on these bulletin boards.

I would like to thank the board.
 
Rusty
I can look through my database of customers, about 1000 at this point and maybe find 20% that I would feel comfortable doing with one man, and I don't think my customers would let that happen. How do you deal with long horizontal runs with countless access panels 15 ft off the floor, leaking ductwork, duct work that won't let the water drain out at all and you have to use a vacuum to get it out, duct work that goes straight up 10 floors, the restaurant that hasn't been cleaned in years ect, ect ,ect. It seems to me that you would have to turn down a ton of work in order to find the ones you could do with one guy. Maybe you just happen to live the one place in the world where every exhaust system is actually built with cleaning in mind.
 
You have a unique posture with respect to this subject. You take the high road and gloss over the hard questions. I am a member of IKECA and a former member of PWNA. I question why you are not able to work within the system rather than working on the outside looking in. Have or invite some of us to look at your class and render a objective opinion. I am sure we would not charge you for our visit or with our suggestions.

One thing that concerns me is lack of students have posting or inter reaction with the bb. We have yet to fell the impact of this "one man system" within any market.

The benchmark for certification was set by Phil & IKECA years back. Before, there was nothing. Both are credible influences on our trade and they are the founders. You just have not stood the test of time and your process is a questionable issue with many of us who have multi certifications.

David
 
If I were in Rusty's shoes, I wouldn't let my students know anything about this bb. That's not a criticism of the bb, but simply good sense. There's a lot of negative feedback about what he's offering, and whether it is justified or not, it certainly wouldn't help his former or current students feel confident in what they're getting for their money. While it would be a good thing for them to see both sides of the picture, I would venture to guess that he doesn't want them anywhere around here. Of course, if they had any sense at all, they would have found this place through their research of the industry long before they wrote him that $16k check.
 
I agree with you and that is why his system will not hold up to the test. Not one of his students have posted. I would like to know how many STARS should we give the school?

David
 
Rusty, most of us on this board got our training on the job, and it was complete with false starts, mistakes and a lot of hard work. Now you are telling us that with a short course, any one can learn how to clean exhaust systems. I do not know how many years/students have been through your class. Would you mind telling us how many years you have been teaching exhaust work and how many students have completed your course. How many students are still in business and what is thier customer base and income level. Of course if your class is as good as you claim, why not invite a couple of us with some experience to go through the course. we may be skeptical, but if you are as good as you say, we would change our opinions. And you could make even more money by teaching us !

Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc
 
Rusty
you said that unlike you (Grant) that he isnt having to split his hard earned monies with secriteries employees yada yada yada
and then you even say they dont pay fica tax ,workers comp or even insurance
its the law to pay taxes are you a tax evader also??
isnt tax evasion illegal??

isnt it STUPID to run a business with no insurance??
I darn sure wouldnt want an uninsured comp. doing work for me
tell me somthing do you have ins.??
if so why??
if not why??
and you never did answer me about the issue of the AJH
are you telling these students that ins. and taxes arnt a part of owning and operating a business in the U.S. that its ok not to have ins. and its ok to evade paying taxes???

I am a legitimate comp. I pay taxes and i think that all other LEGITIMATE business owners on this board do to....
its called obeying the law if you break the tax laws what other laws are you willing to break???

I hope the IRS never audits you or them....ever think of that???
 
There is one aspect being overlooked here.

Rusty has a responsibility to his sutdents. The 16k check he cashed says so.

When his fifty year old student falls off a ladder, breaks his back, rusty gets served with court papers for teaching unsafe practices.

When his student bids a job and gets WAY over his head (bound to happen) doesn't do the system right, it catches fire and burns down, rusty gets served with courts papers for teaching unsafe practices.


When his student doesn't know the proper procedure for covering or protecting secondary equipment and causes thousands of dollars in damages, rusty gets served with court papers for teaching unsafe practices.

For 16k his students better learn every aspect of the industry, reducing the chances for costly mistakes and in a weeks worth of training that is not happening!

Save some of those checks your cashing rusty, your gonna need it sooner or later.
Hell, I am thinking of serving some court papers on you out of princicple alone. You should be ashamed!
 
Due to the enormous positive response that this board has shown me from day 1, I doubt that you would treat kindly anything that any of our students would have to say. But they as always are more then welcome to post any comments. They don't have a dog in this fight so what would they have to gain but a group beating.

I never said that we/ or our students don't pay taxes.

If I employ workers, I am responsible for paying half of their FICA taxes (7.5%), therefore since we have no employees we don't pay these non-exsistent worker's their 7.5% of their FICA taxes.

Also if I don't have employees there are NO WORKER's to have to pay WORKER'S COMP insurance for. Therefore, I don't pay any worker's comp. insurance.

Not to mention, if you don't have employees, you don't have to be bonded. The purpose of being bonded is to protect youself incase your employees steal from your customers. If you don't have employees, they can't steal, therefore no Bonding required. Unless, you plan on stealing from your customers, in that case you better bond yourself from yourself.

Now I realize that this is a foreign concept to the large hood cleaning operations. But to us small guys, this is common practice.

We aren't the first to clean exhaust systems using 1 person, we have just perfected it and now offer to teach others how to do it.


So what you are saying is that we should have school that lasts about a semester long (say 6 months) in which we have the students live with us (dormitory style) and teach them hood cleaning. How many people do you know that can take 6 months off of work to attend this long of a training session. How much would it cost to attend a semester long training session. More than it would be worth. We should do like others have and sell them about $40,000 worth of equipment to start their business with and help them hire employees, secretaries, salesmen, accountants, etc. to load them up with debt before their first dollar is earned.

You are trying to tell me that grown, adult males, such as yourselves, can't learn how to do something in a week? That it takes you months to figure out something? I can't believe that it took months for you to figure out how to clean a hood. We're not talking ROCKET SCIENCE here. I think that if you look back at your beginning, you figured it out pretty quickly, and then spent months perfecting it.

That is exactly what we do, we teach you the BASICS in 5 days and then follow you back home and give you continuous support until you are own your own. What is so difficult to understand about this teaching method.

Do you dog out DELCO/ PWNA for only taking 5 days to teach, train and certify people how to clean kitchen exhaust systems?
Seems to me that MR. HYDE is doing the same thing. How is it possible for DELCO/PWNA to teach in 5 days but we can't? I think that if you look at the situation, you are not dogging out PWNA, but you are dogging me out for doing the same thing.

So, is there anyone here who learned how to clean hoods in 5 days from DELCO/PWNA? How can that be? YOU must surely be mistaken? Why, it's IMPOSSIBLE to learn anything in 5 days.



I never said that we or our students operate without insurance.

Mr. Hicks, you say that you learned on the job, WHY that's exactly how we teach our students. Do you know of any other hood cleaning school that does that?

We've had 27 people attend our training (that is 22 businesses). Of the 22 businesses 3 are not currently cleaning hoods.

Of the 3- 1 developed breast cancer and had to stop cleaning
1- didn't like the sales and marketing required and stopped cleaning hoods, and the 3rd person decided that he liked his day job better, but that he was still considering starting back when his situation changes.

So, we have an 86% (19 succeed/3 fail) successful business rate so far. We have 7 more students (5 businesses) scheduled over the next 6 weeks which will bring our total up to 27 businesses (34 students). That will improve our success rate up to 89%.

So let me clarify since there are those who don't seem to understand:

We offer 3 PRODUCTS:

1. ACS Master Certified Hood & Duct Cleaning Business- Complete Kitchen Exhaust Cleaning Business- $8000 for up to 2 people
2. ACS Master Certified Power Washer- Complete powerwashing business- $1000 offered as an add-on course to the above
3. ACS Master Certified Hood & Duct Certification ONLY course- for those current kitchen exhaust cleaners who want certification- $3000 must be a currently cleaning exhaust systems and be insured to do such.

Then we offer 2 Equipment packages:

1. BASIC- name says it all, what it takes to get you started
2. Deluxe- all the stuff that you will run out of, lose, or wish that you had in your first year of business is included.
 
The point that needs to be addressed here is that by your own admission, you were cleaning hoods for two years before you opened your school.
I personally have been doing this for 22 years and I am still running into new situations and learning from them. How with two years could you consider yourself qualified to teach newbies?
Now you have more time under your belt you still haven't qualified yourself to the industry in which you work to teach others.
 
Perhaps the NFPA has got it all backwards, Schools should be certified to teach, and the students after passing an outside, unbiased, exam given by an independent testing organization would be "Qualified" to perform exhaust cleaning.
 
Rusty

Look you are the one who jumped into this arena and started to tell everyone about your system and we have issues with the process. You have had plenty of time to convince this bb. You have failed to substantiate your one man crew process with the Deluxe Package.

Because we don't speak of Delco's Hood School does not mean that we approve or disapprove. They are not coming on this bb selling the school with a process that most of us know lacks merit. You have overstated your one man process and you know it.

David
 
First, I was invited to this board to discuss our business opportunity.

Secondly, I didn't come to this board to SELL anything, only set the record straight.

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Now to David and Grant's question as to why we didn't just associate ourselves with IKECA or PWNA.

We agree in principle with IKECA and PWNA but we just don't agree with the way that they go about business.

Your assertion that since IKECA and PWNA magically formed themselves yet we can't just doesn't fly.

We think that there should be a better way for everyone in America to become certified at a reasonable cost. So that is why we are forming our on independent Certified Hood & Duct Cleaners Association with our Charter Meeting on 4/27/3. This will be an association of hood cleaners from around America who see that there is a better way to certify all kitchen exhaust cleaners.

For example: 10 yr cost to remain certified, IKECA vs PWNA vs ACS

In order to be Certified from IKECA requires $535/ year in annual dues + $50/ year to remain certified. Total 10 year cost= $5850

In order to be Certified from PWNA requires $195-399/year in annual dues + $125/ 3years to remain certified. Total 10 year cost= $2367-$4407.

In order to be Certified from ACS requires $0/year annual dues + $0/year to remain certified. Total 10 year cost= $0

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Now to Grant's argument that we only took 2 years and then started teaching.

A little history of our company is in order:

First, our parent company DHDSI (our hood cleaning company) started in 1992. From 1995-1998 Roger attempted to sell our concept as a Franchise with limited success. Then in 1999 he transitioned his concept to a business opportunity and lowered the price.

The concept of Advanced Cleaning Systems/ Hoodcleaningschool.com was developed in 2001 and is being continuously improved to the way that it is today.

The statistics that I gave you are from the students that have completed since 1999 coming through the Advanced Cleaning Systems business opportunity.

So, Roger spent 7-8 years perfecting his techniques before offering them in their current format.

He perfects his techniques continuously because Roger is still actively cleaning exhaust systems on a nightly basis in addition to teaching the hood cleaning school students.

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Now onto the topic of should schools be certified to teach, and the students after passing an outside, unbiased, exam given by an independent testing organization would be "Qualified" to perform exhaust cleaning.

We are truly the only independent organization that exists today.

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To Grant's argument that we haven't stood the test of time:

When does one begin to stand the test of time. I've been going back and forth on this forum for almost a year now. Is this not proof that we're not going anywhere. That we are standing the test of time.

How many years did you wait before you joined IKECA after they were formed? How many years did you wait before you joined PWNA?

How long will we have to be in business before we have stood the test of time?

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To Ductsteamer's argument that 1 person must be slower than 3.

1 person can clean a hood in 2.5-3 hours.

2 people can clean the same hood in 2.5 hours

3 people can clean the same hood in 2-2.5 hours

There is not a direct correlation between number of people and amount of time it takes to clean an exhaust system.

If that were the case a 100 hood cleaners could clean it in about 5 minutes.

There is only ONE powerwasher. What are the others standing around for but to clean up the mess that the one person is making.

Now obviously there are jobs that are too big for 1 person to clean by himself. And we know that, you just don't bid on those jobs. That is what David, Bryan, Grant and others are successful doing. But the argument that since there aren't enough small jobs you won't make any money is false.

Since our overhead is so significantly lower than the big companies we are able to directly compete with them. In fact, we LOVE the big companies with all of their overhead, because they are the ones keeping the price ELEVATED to cover their expenses. Now we are able to fly in under the radar and pick off their OVERCHARGED clients and take care of them.

We have marketing tips that we teach that we use that have allowed us to keep our clients for 8-10 years. They don't price hop, or go looking for better service, because we take care of our customers.

It's like ying/yang theory: They do the big jobs and we do the small jobs. It's not as profitable for the big companies to clean the small jobs, and it's not as profitable for the small companies to clean the big jobs.

Therefore, we don't compete with the big companies, and rarely are the big companies able to compete with the small companies.
 
We agree in principle with IKECA and PWNA but we just don't agree with the way that they go about business.

Rusty perhaps it is the other way around, they don't associate with you since they don't agree with how you go about your business.


Now I don't clean hoods, I am a flat worker, concrete cleaning in case you not aware what flat work means.

I have been in business 6 years and am still learning, do I feel qualified to start a school, sure anyone can, do I feel qualified to say I know it all so if you come to my school and pay me $16 K you will know everything there is about how to clean concrete, NOPE.

That is partly what they are saying, you start your business, 2 years later your the TOP GUN expert in hood cleaning so you open a school and certify your students.

Why not just franchise them and reap even more of they money? Oh wait maybe the reason you don't is they don't last long enough in the business to pay you the franchise fee.

As for you being invited to this board to explain yourself, yes I recall that very well but the only time you show up here is to defend yourself.

Not once have you ever contributed to this or any board, makes people wonder just how much you really know.

Jon
 
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