What's your opinion on the Auto bailout loans

DJ Carroll said:
I hope it happens cause I got 60 shares of ford stock
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If Ford goes under your stock is worth $0.

The unions are giving it up already but it may be to late.The lame duck Republicans are going to kill it or tie so much pork to the bill it will die.I see they have already tied the federal judges cost of living raises to it.Can you believe this SH@T they are going to put us in a depression for their pork barrel spending!

If I could I would run them all out of Congress.We need term limits BAD these deadbeats need to be put out after 8 years.

I don't know if we realize that if the big three go down the foreign automakers are right behind,because they won't be able to get parts.The CEO of Johnson controls advised Congress that they are the biggest supplier of auto parts in the world and their production and profit are based on the volume to supply all the automakers and id 40% of their customers stop buying then they have to charge more for their parts and the ripple goes out to all the other parts makers too.
 
It's called Chapter 11 and when that happens they can restructure and move forward as for Unions WHY SHOULD I have to pay to bail them out? they make triple what the tax payers that are paying the bill make and I'm supposed to fell sorry for them? NOT. I think the rest of of AMERICA is going through hard times and they don't want to GIVE ONE PENNY UP thats what is not right.

Tell me the UAW needs that BIG ASS FANCY BUILDING IN DETROIT and Top Union Leaders making Millions just like the CEO's they bitch about just FOLLOW THE MONEY TRAIL, if the union was smart and not GREEDY they would have helped out and compromised and gave up some of the Bennie's to keep working and help out but they wanted it all and for guys making $15 an hour or LESS to pay their way thats what is not right. Now they can file and start over like ALL OTHERS HAVE TO DO WHEN THEY ARE NOT MAKING A DIME. I'm sorry but no one will help me out when I fail so what do I do? File Chapter 11 and start over with less debt and so they should have to too. They are going no where and this is the way the Free market works not bailing everybody out that gives you a VOTING BLOCK.

This is a GLOBAL ECONOMY it is now no longer a USA everything, so one must compete that way and if you not making money how can you pay out more then you take in and keep running? everybody in them companies needs to down size from the top down or else it will not work. NOPE leave my Tax dollars alone after all just look at how well our GOVERNMENT has ran everything else they have touched into the GROUND and now they want their greedy little hands on making cars? LOL sorry but free markets should work here and stop giving money to banks for them to stuff away while their at it.


OH and everything I drive is GM or FORD and thats my sweepers too.

I say start fresh loss some debt and start doing business the right way.
 
I have seen countless times on this board where somebody has given the advice of if you discount your service they will expect it forever.I see alot of people are jumping on the unions and claiming they need to give in.That train of thought doesn't match what I have sen here it has always been don't cave.

The automakers going into bankruptcy would freeze their assets and their banking.The suppliers that are owed money wouldn't get paid.These huge companies don't pay weekly they drag it out 60 or 90 days before they pay and imagine all the suppliers who have supplied them for 2 to 3 months not getting paid or getting paid pennies on the dollar.They will fold up and there aren't companies out there that can just step in and make auto parts in a couple days notice.

I hope that they get help for our sake not theirs.It will cause catastrophic damage to the economy.Hell the economy is already in such bad shape the Arabs can cough and oil will go up ten cents a barrel and the stock market will fall 3oo points.

We need some light at the end of the tunnel.

Unfortunately we all don't have a senate seat we can auction off like Obama's governor in Illinois does.(thats for Jeff th Obama lover,just a little salt).
 
TLC Sweeping & Maint said:
It's called Chapter 11 and when that happens they can restructure and move forward as for Unions WHY SHOULD I have to pay to bail them out? they make triple what the tax payers that are paying the bill make and I'm supposed to fell sorry for them? NOT. I think the rest of of AMERICA is going through hard times and they don't want to GIVE ONE PENNY UP thats what is not right.

Tell me the UAW needs that BIG ASS FANCY BUILDING IN DETROIT and Top Union Leaders making Millions just like the CEO's they bitch about just FOLLOW THE MONEY TRAIL, if the union was smart and not GREEDY they would have helped out and compromised and gave up some of the Bennie's to keep working and help out but they wanted it all and for guys making $15 an hour or LESS to pay their way thats what is not right. Now they can file and start over like ALL OTHERS HAVE TO DO WHEN THEY ARE NOT MAKING A DIME. I'm sorry but no one will help me out when I fail so what do I do? File Chapter 11 and start over with less debt and so they should have to too. They are going no where and this is the way the Free market works not bailing everybody out that gives you a VOTING BLOCK.

This is a GLOBAL ECONOMY it is now no longer a USA everything, so one must compete that way and if you not making money how can you pay out more then you take in and keep running? everybody in them companies needs to down size from the top down or else it will not work. NOPE leave my Tax dollars alone after all just look at how well our GOVERNMENT has ran everything else they have touched into the GROUND and now they want their greedy little hands on making cars? LOL sorry but free markets should work here and stop giving money to banks for them to stuff away while their at it.


OH and everything I drive is GM or FORD and thats my sweepers too.

I say start fresh loss some debt and start doing business the right way.
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I tend to agree that all these companies should of filed chapter 11, the banks the investment companies and the big 3. But it would be just to much for our country to take and the world.

The problem I see also is that it is a global economy. We cant compete in a global economy, there are restrictions against american goods but not against other countries goods coming to America. Global economy how do we compete when other countries subsidize their companies including their auto industry and we arent. How can we compete with countries that trheir labor force works for $1, $2, $3, $4 an hour. That what auto workers and other workers work for in Mexico. The auto workers in Mexico actually make less now than what they used to make a decade ago. How can we compete against what China pays their workers, pennies or prison labor. I just dont see to many American making it on a few dollars an hour

Sure pay American $4 an hour than maybe we can compete. Sure UAW cut wages its all the unions fault. Thers a reason many people make even half of what unions workers make, its because unions fought to bring wages up for everyone. Its kind of funny that wages are going down in many if not all areas of the economy, its funny that workers, companies across the country have slowly but steadly hav lost bennies, these are union and non union, hell unions are only about 7% of our work force non and over half of that is lower paying unin jobs, hospitallity workers etc

More and more the American worker has been losing. Less and less health care or pay more & more for it, whats a pension nowadays , they just arent out there for blue collar workers. Workers are making over $2000 less a year than just 7 years ago, thats if they even have a job. More and more are working part time jobs because there are no fulltime jobs because we have shipped so many industries to oher countries and the jobs that go with it

Global economy ya how can we compete. Sure cut the union wages, so they can cut everyone elses wages, its a vicious circle we are going backwards not forward. Heathcare cost are killing us, cheap labor is killing us and we just let it happen and from what I hear here many of you all support it, think its all the unions fault, think its the American fault, you support these countries and our gov who help create this mess. Hell send every single job to another country, why not they will work for crappy wages

You know you say $15 an hour workers, you try to live anywhere up north for $15 an hour, theres not enough worn out trailer homes up north to house the millions of people that coundnt afford a home or even an apartment

CUT WAGES.....how long do you think it will take before they start cutting what they are going to pay you for services. maybe we can get a job in china or a japanese auto plant down south plenty of broken down trailer homes here in SC.
Cut wages I already know of some companies that run a lot of these shopping malls that are cuttiong back on services or are trying to get more and more from people like you but they want more but are not paying more. Hell wait until the retail #'s come in and they find the malls made crap for money this Xmas and the economy stays bad, because we keep cutting wages and losing jobs, these shopping malls wont be having their parking lots swept as much, there sidewalks cleaned as much. Hey its OK they can just come to you and say you have to CUT YOUR RATES.....we are turning our whole labor force into low balling hacks to compete

Have a nice day and you better go spend several million dollars att each and every mall you clean, because each and everyone of them need the money Americans cant afford Xmas this year. Well at least Walmart will do OK, but then again of course Walmart will do OK, most of there products are from another country


I'm sorry I just see things going backwards and it upset the heck out of me
 
So it looks like bailout is a no go and everyone gonna wake up to foreign markets down huge like upto
50% down.. yikes!..

Hey Cajun,
Here is transcript link to Johnson Controls CEO statements: http://www.johnsoncontrols.com/publ...t/Wandellcongressional testimony 12-04-08.pdf
I can't say I totally believe how key they are to the scheme of things and sorta have the feeling there is an agenda involved. I don't know much about them but so I would question what exactly it is they do. Do they really make anything or do they have others make the things and lock up things with their contracting?. What I know of their involvement for instance in the building maintenance field is that they are like a middle man that pretty much rapes the hell out of their customers and causes lower profits to vendors that actually do the work. Until I understand their role better in the auto world I'll consider them as a likely hindrance to it. Perhaps they are part of the problem..perhaps the small mom and pop manufactures that actually make things can have play again directly with who's paying the bills. Don't know though as like I said I don't know their involve in the auto industry.


Terry, I think we don't know yet if it would be chapter 11 or if it be chapter 7. They don't have enough money then it'll have to be chapter 7..
Heard that Ford said if the others go down they will too.
 
Let Exxon bail them out. They have boasted record profits for years as we paid $3 to $4 a gallon. They have the most to gain keeping America rolling.
 
Jeff since when does the AMERICAN TAX PAYER BAIL OUT UNIONS OR COMPANIES? I'M SORRY TOO, THAT WE ARE NOT GOING DOWN THE NATIONALIZATION ROUTE MY SELF, it has worked so well for Europe and I don't hear anybody talking about the big picture, this Money was only going to hold them over until March, so now when we get to March and they have not done anything about how to fix their Problems do they come back for more? I say YES THEY DO, WITH TIN CUPS IN HAND. You voted for change and giving them Money to run 4 Months is not going to change anything is it? It took them many years to tank and now by giving them 15 BILLION of OUR MONEY is it going to fix the Big 3? I Don't think so, They just burned through 100 billion or more in the last six months.

The best part of all of this is the UAW saying they will not drop their wages to compete and I say GOOD be unemployed then, SORRY Jeff but we built this country with hard work and not every Company or Union was Crying for others Money. You give the USA no credit at all to bounce back STRONGER and weather you like it or not we are in a Global Economy and there is nothing we can do about it but CHANGE, OH yes that Word we heard so much about the last few months. I have Faith in the AMERICAN PEOPLE and we will be a better Country when the dust settles.

There will be pain but in the end we will be better off and if you look at the polls you will see I'm not alone in thinking this way, who is next with their TIN CUP OUT. It has to stop somewhere and the sky is not falling.

OH and yes the people that could not AFFORD a house is what got us into this mess in the first place ;) Lets see do any of these names ring a bell? Barney Frank? Chris Dodd? they made sure that every one including people not from this country got a house and could not pay it back and they are still in office and part of the problem. Sorry I don't think like you, but I'm not going to make a PERSONAL ATTACK about your Business or Money you make, after all I don't have employees, I walk from 6 to 10 Miles a Night cleaning my malls LOL and I'm 50 years old, so hard work is not new to me. But I will let you know when I make my first Million that I worked two jobs for 21 years so that I could get my own business going. NO HAND OUTS HERE.....and No UNION. OH and trust me, I hear about the UAW daily, My Girl Friends whole family works for the BIG 3 back east ;)


OH Have a FANTASTIC DAY :D
 
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We both have strong opinions and I was not trying to do a personal attck on you at all. I am just nt ready to say the hell with one of our industries because they say we can't compete of course we can't compete when the deck is stacked against them

SINCE WHEN DO WE BAIL OUT look at the bottom of this post>>>>>>


Toyota or Honda in Kentucky hourly workers get $30.27 if you include the $6-8K in bonuses. UAW auto workers get $28 an hour. But the senate republican caucus wants the UAW to cut wages by a 1/3. The republicans in the senate want to break the union even if it kills another American made industry

VW is being subsidized by their country and the USA and I think it was Tenn or Ky gave VW over $500,000,000 MILLION in tax breaks. So we the AMERICAN PEOPLE gave away our money to a foreign company so they could come in and low ball our AMERICAN comany out of business 500 million


You say 4 months thats at $14 billion, because thats all the Whitehouse and congress wanted to give. They asked for $34 Billion, but they said wait until after Jan 20th. Why do you want to just give up on our auto industry

Must if not all bankruptcy lawyers say if they go into Chapter 11 , it won't work everything will freeze up and the companies will liquidate to Chapter 7


WE BAILED OUT AIG over $125 billion and they are asking for more. Big 3 asked for ONLY 34 Billion. PLUS the UAW have given many concessions and still will the Big 3 CEO's are working for $1 now a year. Why can we bailout with NO rules no cuts the white collar companies but say screw the blue collar workers. Hell they make less than some of the jap car maker workers


AIG it just was on the news, they AIG is giving bonuses to the TOP 168 people in AIG.......from $162,000 to $3,000,000 each YUP up to 3 million. Thats a 168 people and we gave them $125 billion. AND THEY ARE GETTING HUGE BONUSES, the republican senate just wants to break the unions, not help our country A HOLES
 
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Jeff, what do you think CAUSED this problem?

I have four personal friends who own manufacturing plants.

One has moved his operation from southern California to Mexico.
Two are here in Las Vegas and one is in Nashville. One is a multimillionaire, two do ok and the other is broke.

Can you guess what their complaints are? Any idea why the one guy moved his to Mexico?

These are REAL people who, between them supply over 600 jobs to AMERICANS and the one guy has 80 employees in Mexico.

I've had dinner conversations with them many times. Just for good measure I called the three in the US last night. I asked them to give in order the reasons they might move their plant to another country. Here were their answers.

1) Government regulations - stupid hoops to jump through.
2) Insurance Costs - employees that go to the doctor for every little thing and consequently give insurance companies reason to raise rates.
3) Attorney Costs - constantly fighting lawsuits that they win. But spending lots of money to do it. None of the three have ever settled, but all three said they've thought it would be a lot cheaper to settle in the future.
4) Transportation Costs - All are worried about a huge rise in future costs and all were affected by the gas prices rising.

ALL THREE I spoke to said they would build a plant in Mexico if UNIONS penetrated their workers. They ALL THREE said it would put them out of business within 2 years.

So I asked them what they pay. One wouldn't say, but his parking lot is filled with decent looking cars so he must be paying ok. The other two start in the mid teens and they said the average worker makes $18-23/hr not counting bonuses or the pay of management. They all three pay for at least 75% of the cost of health and life insurance on their employees (one pays 100%). Average Christmas bonus this year? $200.00.

Notice, wages didn't even make the list. Neither did taxes, which didn't surprise me since NV and TN are good areas for business in the way of taxes.

Why are you assuming that these guys providing jobs for hundreds don't give a crap about their employees? Why would you assume that all they care about is making a dollar? None of these four guys are like that at all. Are their wages unfair? These are not rocket science jobs. Anybody with a pulse can sit and do the same thing over and over again all day. Is $3000 per month too little? When we moved here we made just a little more than that between the two of us and we lived just fine. If two family members work at the same place they can live very well here at those wages.

Now, IF these four things are what's hurting the manufacturing industry why not tackle those problems instead of throwing around the taxes issue and low wages overseas issue?

1) GET THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF THEIR A*SES! The guy in California told me they spent 5 full days out of each month just dealing with inspectors and redundant paperwork. The guys here said they have at least 3 employees who's job is to deal with the government.

2) Health insurance and Liability insurance are out of control. Why is that Jeff? Doctors aren't making all the money its the Lawyers. They have to be reigned in. The only way out of this is the LOSER PAYS system. Why don't we hear more about this? Because most politicians are either LAWYERS or in the Lawyer's pockets or are AFRAID of the lawyers. Why should a doctor have to pay $100,000 a year for malpractice insurance?

3) Loser pay would solve the problem for my three friends. They don't object to paying if they actually harm some one. But they get sued for stupid things like one was sued because his product didn't get to it's destination on time even though he sent it out as scheduled. Why was he sued? Because the contractor installing the product was being sued and the plaintiff sued everyone involved to try to reach the deepest pockets. They have spend $122,000 thus far defending this case. Why do these factory owners have to go through this?

4) Transportation costs could be lowered by producing more of our own oil if only the goverment would get out of the way and allow industry to provide those good paying oil drilling jobs. Meanwhile new technology needs to be implemented, but the liberal students in the colleges that used to come up with scientific breakthroughs are too busy protesting, hugging trees and experimenting with the joys of same-sex relationships to come up with any useful ideas.

So, again, Jeff, What do you think caused this collapse with the Big three?
 
jlpressure said:
We both have strong opinions and I was not trying to do a personal attck on you at all. I am just nt ready to say the hell with one of our industries because they say we can't compete of course we can't compete when the deck is stacked against them

SINCE WHEN DO WE BAIL OUT look at the bottom of this post>>>>>>


Toyota or Honda in Kentucky hourly workers get $30.27 if you include the $6-8K in bonuses. UAW auto workers get $28 an hour. But the senate republican caucus wants the UAW to cut wages by a 1/3. The republicans in the senate want to break the union even if it kills another American made industry

VW is being subsidized by their country and the USA and I think it was Tenn or Ky gave VW over $500,000,000 MILLION in tax breaks. So we the AMERICAN PEOPLE gave away our money to a foreign company so they could come in and low ball our AMERICAN comany out of business 500 million


You say 4 months thats at $14 billion, because thats all the Whitehouse and congress wanted to give. They asked for $34 Billion, but they said wait until after Jan 20th. Why do you want to just give up on our auto industry

Must if not all bankruptcy lawyers say if they go into Chapter 11 , it won't work everything will freeze up and the companies will liquidate to Chapter 7


WE BAILED OUT AIG over $125 billion and they are asking for more. Big 3 asked for ONLY 34 Billion. PLUS the UAW have given many concessions and still will the Big 3 CEO's are working for $1 now a year. Why can we bailout with NO rules no cuts the white collar companies but say screw the blue collar workers. Hell they make less than some of the jap car maker workers


AIG it just was on the news, they AIG are giving bonuses to the TOP 168 people in AIG.......from $162,000 to $3,000,000 YUP up to 3 million. Thats a 168 people and we gave them $125 billion. AND THEY ARE GETTING HUGE BONUSES, the republican senate just wants to break the unions, not help our country A HOLES
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For once I am an complete agreement with you Jeff on the AIG and other bank bailouts. Citibank is on it's second bailout, but how much of a break do you think their giving their customers. I guess I'll find out if I get behind.
 
Here let me make this clear Jeff, I Don't want ANY and that means ANY Money going to ANYONE, I don't care who they are or what business they are in.

We are not a Socialist Country and Our GOVERMENT have no business bailing anybody out of anything PERIOD.


Now I'm for REAL CHANGE ;) Something we will never see as long as we have the MORONS we have in our Goverment running things.
 
tonyshelton said:
Jeff, what do you think CAUSED this problem?

I have four personal friends who own manufacturing plants.

One has moved his operation from southern California to Mexico.
Two are here in Las Vegas and one is in Nashville. One is a multimillionaire, two do ok and the other is broke.

Can you guess what their complaints are? Any idea why the one guy moved his to Mexico?

These are REAL people who, between them supply over 600 jobs to AMERICANS and the one guy has 80 employees in Mexico.

I've had dinner conversations with them many times. Just for good measure I called the three in the US last night. I asked them to give in order the reasons they might move their plant to another country. Here were their answers.

1) Government regulations - stupid hoops to jump through.
2) Insurance Costs - employees that go to the doctor for every little thing and consequently give insurance companies reason to raise rates.
3) Attorney Costs - constantly fighting lawsuits that they win. But spending lots of money to do it. None of the three have ever settled, but all three said they've thought it would be a lot cheaper to settle in the future.
4) Transportation Costs - All are worried about a huge rise in future costs and all were affected by the gas prices rising.

ALL THREE I spoke to said they would build a plant in Mexico if UNIONS penetrated their workers. They ALL THREE said it would put them out of business within 2 years.

So I asked them what they pay. One wouldn't say, but his parking lot is filled with decent looking cars so he must be paying ok. The other two start in the mid teens and they said the average worker makes $18-23/hr not counting bonuses or the pay of management. They all three pay for at least 75% of the cost of health and life insurance on their employees (one pays 100%). Average Christmas bonus this year? $200.00.

Notice, wages didn't even make the list. Neither did taxes, which didn't surprise me since NV and TN are good areas for business in the way of taxes.

Why are you assuming that these guys providing jobs for hundreds don't give a crap about their employees? Why would you assume that all they care about is making a dollar? None of these four guys are like that at all. Are their wages unfair? These are not rocket science jobs. Anybody with a pulse can sit and do the same thing over and over again all day. Is $3000 per month too little? When we moved here we made just a little more than that between the two of us and we lived just fine. If two family members work at the same place they can live very well here at those wages.

Now, IF these four things are what's hurting the manufacturing industry why not tackle those problems instead of throwing around the taxes issue and low wages overseas issue?

1) GET THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF THEIR A*SES! The guy in California told me they spent 5 full days out of each month just dealing with inspectors and redundant paperwork. The guys here said they have at least 3 employees who's job is to deal with the government.

2) Health insurance and Liability insurance are out of control. Why is that Jeff? Doctors aren't making all the money its the Lawyers. They have to be reigned in. The only way out of this is the LOSER PAYS system. Why don't we hear more about this? Because most politicians are either LAWYERS or in the Lawyer's pockets or are AFRAID of the lawyers. Why should a doctor have to pay $100,000 a year for malpractice insurance?

3) Loser pay would solve the problem for my three friends. They don't object to paying if they actually harm some one. But they get sued for stupid things like one was sued because his product didn't get to it's destination on time even though he sent it out as scheduled. Why was he sued? Because the contractor installing the product was being sued and the plaintiff sued everyone involved to try to reach the deepest pockets. They have spend $122,000 thus far defending this case. Why do these factory owners have to go through this?

4) Transportation costs could be lowered by producing more of our own oil if only the goverment would get out of the way and allow industry to provide those good paying oil drilling jobs. Meanwhile new technology needs to be implemented, but the liberal students in the colleges that used to come up with scientific breakthroughs are too busy protesting, hugging trees and experimenting with the joys of same-sex relationships to come up with any useful ideas.

So, again, Jeff, What do you think caused this collapse with the Big three?
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Tony I dont have time to respond to a lot of this now i have to go. I do agree on some of your points. Plus I think the smaller companies, not the huge corps do get swallowed up in a big mess of things. But as for regulations and such , we (the Gov) have tried now and throughout history to stay out of the way of big corps even let go of many regulations and time and time again the big corps took advantage, their self regulation was basically do what ever they wanted it to. A good part of the problems today are from corps not self regulating. Money scams to really damaging the environment

The union deal is rather mute in most companies, like I said union is less than 7% of our work force and much of that is hospitality workers and such on the lower pay scale anyway

I got to go, talk with you later
 
TLC Sweeping & Maint said:
Here let me make this clear Jeff, I Don't want ANY and that means ANY Money going to ANYONE, I don't care who they are or what business they are in.

We are not a Socialist Country and Our GOVERMENT have no business bailing anybody out of anything PERIOD.


Now I'm for REAL CHANGE ;) Something we will never see as long as we have the MORONS we have in our Goverment running things.
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Thats whats up :D
 
No matter what we all say, the bottom line is bail them out or we all lose!!
Auto parts
Auto sales
Auto Accesories
Auto mechanic's
Auto workers
Auto supplier's
etc...etc...the list is very long.
It's not just ford, chevy, chrysler, add, volvo, sabb, daewoo, buick, cadillac, Hummer, saturn, jeep, mercury, and im sure a few i'm missing?
I cant imagine the amount of lives that will be touched by this disaster, i hope the President can step in and bail them out or we are screwed.
 
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