What's your opinion on the Auto bailout loans

cajun cleanin

cajun cleanin

New member
I for one hope it happens,because if GM and Chrysler file bankruptcy then the federal government would start running those companies,God know no one would buy those vehicles then.

I think the guy at Chrysler should stay but the CEO of Gm has to go.I was watching them in front of congress the other day and Ford and Chrysler were doing what it took to survive and were both profitable in the first quarter of 08.GM on the other hand seem lie they are just sitting around waiting on a handout.They don't want to downsize they make like 47 different cars and have over 4800 dealerships competing against one another.

I hope everyone realizes what would happen if those companies fold.The ripple effect would affect everyone in this country.If it were just one and things were good in the economy then I would be ok with an under performing company folding up and going down but right now if those two folded it would possible cripple us a country.

What is your take on it?
 
cajun cleanin said:
I for one hope it happens,because if GM and Chrysler file bankruptcy then the federal government would start running those companies,God know no one would buy those vehicles then.

I think the guy at Chrysler should stay but the CEO of Gm has to go.I was watching them in front of congress the other day and Ford and Chrysler were doing what it took to survive and were both profitable in the first quarter of 08.GM on the other hand seem lie they are just sitting around waiting on a handout.They don't want to downsize they make like 47 different cars and have over 4800 dealerships competing against one another.

I hope everyone realizes what would happen if those companies fold.The ripple effect would affect everyone in this country.If it were just one and things were good in the economy then I would be ok with an under performing company folding up and going down but right now if those two folded it would possible cripple us a country.

What is your take on it?
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The government already runs all three of them. Because of the government it's almost impossible for them to turn a profit. Between the cafe standards and all the other government sponsored red tape, they can't do anything.

It's a wonder Toyota hasn't packed up and gotten out of here a long time ago. The government's goal is to destroy all jobs that aren't provided by the government. Hence then new "infrastructure" program.
 
I think the bail out needs to address the stranglehold of the unions and inefficiencies that are present in the business operations of these 3 companies.

One of the reasons that they are not as competitive and are threatened by foreign car manufacturers is because they can not (or at least are not being allowed to) compete with them. I don't want to see them 'collapse' but why should tax payers reward poor business decisions, poor business practices, an inability to respond to market influences and a lack of foresight? for what? for them to 'promise' to make changes by March 2009? How about some enforced fundamental change from day 1... rewrite fund-sapping union agreements to keep employees in their jobs by taking some strain off of the industry.

The CEO's are as accountable for their business as we are for our business - it is the line workers, suppliers, related industries and the 'small guys' that have my thoughts.

... Government control is the last thing they need, government interference has fueled the problem. At the same time though, market forces have dictated the competitive environment... foreign car manufacturers are struggling and making adjustments, but are in nowhere near the same boat as the 'big 3'... :rolleyes:
 
Steven Button said:
I think the bail out needs to address the stranglehold of the unions and inefficiencies that are present in the business operations of these 3 companies.

One of the reasons that they are not as competitive and are threatened by foreign car manufacturers is because they can not (or at least are not being allowed to) compete with them. I don't want to see them 'collapse' but why should tax payers reward poor business decisions, poor business practices, an inability to respond to market influences and a lack of foresight? for what? for them to 'promise' to make changes by March 2009? How about some enforced fundamental change from day 1... rewrite fund-sapping union agreements to keep employees in their jobs by taking some strain off of the industry.

The CEO's are as accountable for their business as we are for our business - it is the line workers, suppliers, related industries and the 'small guys' that have my thoughts.

... Government control is the last thing they need, government interference has fueled the problem. At the same time though, market forces have dictated the competitive environment... foreign car manufacturers are struggling and making adjustments, but are in nowhere near the same boat as the 'big 3'... :rolleyes:
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I agree..... I think they need to file bankruptcy and restructure and get ride of the unions.
 
I am still undecided on my opnion. They need to be around, but at the same time, poor business decisions are part of what got them here. Again, as previously stated by someone, why reward prro business decisions.
 
I always wonder why many hate the unions. What because they got good health care, they got a good pension, they got good wages, they helped build America. Its OK for White collar workers to get all this but not blue collar workers? The American dream was to have each generation do better, now who gets health care bennies, pensions etc etc just white collar workers. The ones that really helped cause this finacial mess

Many countries subsidize all or part of their auto industry of course they are a little more competitive. has the big three thought a head as well as they could of, of course not but is it their fault the economy went down the tubes. They went from selling 14 million cars and over night practically lost a quarter of their business, people stopped buying cars when fuel hit $4, was that the auto inustry fault? I hear some say the didnt build cars of the future, I say they built what Americans wanted trucks and SUV's. If the auto guys came out with these little 40-50mpg hybrids that no one wanted, they would have lost a lot more sales. Hell the Japan hybrids are a NO money maker, they arent doing well. Did Detroit really do something wrong. You can buy a Honda sudan and it gets 19mpg, you can get a Ford pickup that gets 21mpg. They gave us what we wanted and if they didnt we wouldnt have boght the millions of trucks, suv' and all the other many cool cars that they made. Fuel economy is much better than a couple decades ago, even the Whitehouse loosened fuel standards and now WHAt, screw the big three. They are one of our last big industries, what just close down another American industry and send it to China, India, Central & south America and Japan. Why not we dont build crap here any more, lets get rid of the auto industry and everyone can just be a service worker, a trade that historically doesnt make crap for money. Let the white collar workers have it all and screw the blue collar workers.

We give AIG all these investment and bank companies 350 billion and ask no questions at all we really have NO idea what they have done with the money, the CEO's and top brass still are getting huge salaries, HUGE stock options and still screwing you and I the Auto industry asks for what 25-34 billion and we make the jump through hoops, while the AIGs of this country lauugh all the way to the bank our bank.

F the auto industry so what we can have another 2 - 3 million workers laid off and if and when they find another job, they will be making less and less $$$ while the big guys on wallstreet get bailed out with 1 trillion dollars. What wrong with blue collar workers making a living wage. Just sems like we are going backwards nowadays and the Repubican congressmen and senators give 2 sh*ts about our blue collar workers, but hey they will bail out wallstrret ....because thats the real world:confused: :rolleyes:

Thats right Toyota, Honda they build cars in the USA ....so F the big three. japan deservse to get all the profits, why keep the profits here, why help out our own companies. What a great plan. Looks like a big F america and american workers plan. Oh ya what about all the tax breaks we gave these foriegn auto guys just to get them to come to the south and build cars cheaper and run our industry out of biz, while the jap governmant subsidizes them

F'd up I think. Screw American companies buy a Honda. Just wrong, theirs only so many waitress, cleaning company, resort jobs out there. Another 2 - 3 million laid of workers so what LOL LOL SAD
 
Its too late to do anything for them. The factories need to be retooled. The workers/unions would have to make too many concessions, marketing budgets would have to be tripled. They are done. Any investment in them at this point is throwing good money after bad. Unless the American governemnt is willing to give them enough charity to keep their doors open for 18 months as well as finance new factories, robots etc, its a futile attempt. It would take at least that long to get them to turn around and even then two things may still hold true. 1) People aren't buying new cars. 2) They aren't buying American.

There will be a market correction. A new entrepreneur will come in and rebuild the factories and in three years, if done right, we will have high torque, decent horsepower, fuel efficient vehicles that have styling cues that rival or beat the Japanese. More likely, the Japanese auto makers will come in and take over this task. Let them. They will employ Americans and the gov't can tax the sheet out of them.
 
I'm in a huge auto business state. But the UAW has agreed to NO concessions in order to get this "gift". United Airlines filed bankruptcy and renegotiated contracts with labor and suppliers. They managed to come out of bankruptcy a few years later. That was a good deal for the company, it's employees and America.

The American auto companies can not be profitable as long as their current labor costs remain unchanged. Period. Managements salary should be tied to profitability.

Living Wage.

According to Forbes:

Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers, 2006.

Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)

I know it's Forbes a right leaning pro business publication and some will say they are lying but trust me I personally know several UAW members and it's pretty close. I've heard their stories about working 5 hours and getting paid for 8. And having their buddies clock them out.

Obama bought the UAW votes so now we have to pick up the tab. Filing chapter 11 bankruptcy will not put them out of business or lay off 3 million workers. Why do you think the jobs are going out of the country? This "gift" is just gonna stall off what will happen eventually. They will be back in less than 2 years. It will allow them to re-negotiate contracts. I wish this wasn't true but it is. The only way they can make it long term is to adjust their costs.

I couldn't agree more about the Wall Street and insurance thieves. Line them up and double tap them all.

That being said I have never purchased a car/truck made by a non American company. I only purchase Ford, Chevy, or Dodge etc.

The question to me is not what is the right thing to do? It is what will this industry "Have to do" to survive long term?

How about a poll?

Anyone posting in this thread ever bought a Japanese car or truck?

 
pressurepros said:
Its too late to do anything for them. The factories need to be retooled. The workers/unions would have to make too many concessions, marketing budgets would have to be tripled. They are done. Any investment in them at this point is throwing good money after bad. Unless the American governemnt is willing to give them enough charity to keep their doors open for 18 months as well as finance new factories, robots etc, its a futile attempt. It would take at least that long to get them to turn around and even then two things may still hold true. 1) People aren't buying new cars. 2) They aren't buying American.

There will be a market correction. A new entrepreneur will come in and rebuild the factories and in three years, if done right, we will have high torque, decent horsepower, fuel efficient vehicles that have styling cues that rival or beat the Japanese. More likely, the Japanese auto makers will come in and take over this task. Let them. They will employ Americans and the gov't can tax the sheet out of them.
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Those japanese companies are helped out by their country, they are hurting now also, people arent buying

The hell with the Jap cars I want good ole American Muscle. Ya screw america thats the answer

Tell us what we will do if the japs ever go against us or all the other coutries that make everythiong we DONT make anymore. We will be screwed and fall if we make nothing in this country. anything could happen
 
IndyExterior said:
I'm in a huge auto business state. But the UAW has agreed to NO concessions in order to get this "gift". United Airlines filed bankruptcy and renegotiated contracts with labor and suppliers. They managed to come out of bankruptcy a few years later. That was a good deal for the company, it's employees and America.

The American auto companies can not be profitable as long as their current labor costs remain unchanged. Period. Managements salary should be tied to profitability.

Living Wage.

According to Forbes:

Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers, 2006.

Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)

I know it's Forbes a right leaning pro business publication and some will say they are lying but trust me I personally know several UAW members and it's pretty close. I've heard their stories about working 5 hours and getting paid for 8. And having their buddies clock them out.

Obama bought the UAW votes so now we have to pick up the tab. Filing chapter 11 bankruptcy will not put them out of business or lay off 3 million workers. Why do you think the jobs are going out of the country? This "gift" is just gonna stall off what will happen eventually. They will be back in less than 2 years. It will allow them to re-negotiate contracts. I wish this wasn't true but it is. The only way they can make it long term is to adjust their costs.

I couldn't agree more about the Wall Street and insurance thieves. Line them up and double tap them all.

That being said I have never purchased a car/truck made by a non American company. I only purchase Ford, Chevy, or Dodge etc.

The question to me is not what is the right thing to do? It is what will this industry "Have to do" to survive long term?

How about a poll?

Anyone posting in this thread ever bought a Japanese car or truck?
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Rick those #'s are wrong and the UAW is making and have made many many concessions already have with their health care and wages and they are in the talks right now, lowering their wages to the Japanese wages of jap cars built in the USA

The airline industry isnt really that great of shape but I am helping them with paying $55.00 for my baggage the last trip LOL

The CEO's should be replaced but with who right now, its that people arent buying. japan went through a huge crash a decade or so ago, it was the Gov that bailed it out and helped the economy.

Take back 20% from the AIG bailout and it would cover the big 3. At least the big 3 are only going to take $1.00 salary, I wonder how much the AIG CEO is making. The big 3 just want a LOAN, AIG and all of them are just taking bailout money and using it HOW?

I'll stop babbling, I have said enough
 
We are as much to blame as consumers, we all love our Big Trucks and SUV's so now that we are in a world of S**T we need to change the way we live and make adjustments.

No one wants to blame these people who took mortgages that were way out of thier range? this is the problem no one wants to be accountable for their actions.

If the big 3 is not bailed out, the trickel effect will touch all of us. It is not a question of do you think we should or not? It' is survival of this country as we know it. I dont think we can put another 3 or 4 million people on unemployment and survive it.....my 2 cents
 
Give every American who wants to buy a Ford Chevy or Chrysler a 5K tax break . They sell the cars trucks and the people who buy them ( you and me) get a break too. the money stays in the US on the streets and not in a corprate bail out process hoping it will "trickle down."
 
If I ran my business into the ground & destroyed my credit I dont think I could get any govt agency or bank to be sympathetic to my needs and loan me more money.

I understand Jeff saying to buy American and agree. However Toyota and Honda employ many people directly as well as the trickle down in America. It may be a foriegn company but it is a global market. Everyone is able to buy stock in most of the foreign car manufacturers. If you HAD to invest in an auto company which one would you choose?
 
:rolleyes:
The Cleaner said:
We are as much to blame as consumers, we all love our Big Trucks and SUV's so now that we are in a world of S**T we need to change the way we live and make adjustments.

No one wants to blame these people who took mortgages that were way out of thier range? this is the problem no one wants to be accountable for their actions.

If the big 3 is not bailed out, the trickel effect will touch all of us. It is not a question of do you think we should or not? It' is survival of this country as we know it. I dont think we can put another 3 or 4 million people on unemployment and survive it.....my 2 cents
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No one is accountable , the dumbass homeowner that bought out of there price range, the a holes that lent to them our Gov and we are the ones going to pay, the ones that didnt waste, didnt do stupid chit. But we cant lose another industry and 2 mill+ jobs

Man I hate to not be able to buy that big shiny new American truck i want in a year or two. But unlike many I will wait till I can actually afford it in my budget........ Like my brother in law would say...what a budget. Ya he already lost his house he refinanaced a couple times. So He joined the army at 35 so they could take care of him. Now you want to know his mentallity. He figures even thou they are living for free and his wife makes decent money , he cant understand why he has no money saved, but he figures he will get a VA house loan or what evertype of loan they offer and he is going to buy a house he once again will not be able to afford WTF this is what we are dealing with in our country. I love him, I am proud that he is in the Army and was class commander, but he will always make bad decisions and have no money. They just borrowed $600 from me because his wife said when she drove to VA to get him, she had $1000 in the bank and when she got there there was Minus $173....She called asking for money $600. I know where the $1000 went, it went to the $800 she wrote out in checks and then the other went to the nice dinners & lunches and a night out on the twon when she got there. She sees $1000 in the bank she says we have $1000, lets spend it LOL. Oh ya I was suppose to get the $600 back in a week, I got $100 and now I told them to pay me $100 a month, it should only take a couple years tro get the money back

I write this because I know many like them. they just have no clue. I would bet they gt a cheap loan get a house and still not afford it sooner or later. aggravating
 
jlpressure said:
I always wonder why many hate the unions. What because they got good health care, they got a good pension, they got good wages, they helped build America. Its OK for White collar workers to get all this but not blue collar workers? The American dream was to have each generation do better, now who gets health care bennies, pensions etc etc just white collar workers. The ones that really helped cause this finacial mess
...............................
I hear some say the didnt build cars of the future, I say they built what Americans wanted trucks and SUV's...............................now WHAt, screw the big three. They are one of our last big industries, what just close down another American industry and send it to China, India, Central & south America and Japan. ............................
We give AIG all these investment and bank companies 350 billion and ask no questions at all we really have NO idea what they have done with the money, the CEO's and top brass still are getting huge salaries, HUGE stock options and still screwing you and I the Auto industry asks for what 25-34 billion and we make the jump through hoops, while the AIGs of this country lauugh all the way to the bank our bank.

F the auto industry so what we can have another 2 - 3 million workers laid off and if and when they find another job, they will be making less and less $$$ while the big guys on wallstreet get bailed out with 1 trillion dollars. What wrong with blue collar workers making a living wage. Just sems like we are going backwards nowadays and the Repubican congressmen and senators give 2 sh*ts about our blue collar workers, but hey they will bail out wallstrret ....because thats the real world:confused: :rolleyes:
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Jeff, Jeff, Jeff.....I don't know where to start my friend.

Why do people hate the unions?

Good health care? Nothing wrong with that. My wife had that at Citibank years ago. (not union)

Good pension? Why do they have good pensions? Let's look at a union:Take a look at my school district.
A starting teacher makes $24.00/hr. Their pension is paid by a fund that adds 20% over and above their wages and is based on their wage. Not counting other fringe benefits that means a starting teacher right out of college makes almost $29.00 per hour. OH! BUT they went to college and deserve MORE!!
NOTE:
A starting 0-1 in the Navy makes $14.00/hr. He also went to college. LESS THAN HALF OF WHAT THE WHINING UNION TEACHERS MAKE!!!

Our population has increased 25% since 2000. The budget for school salaries has TRIPLED!!! Why Jeff? UNIONS. We should hate them! THEY ARE DESTROYING OUR COUNTRY!

I can't begin to count the days that my son went to work as a union iron worker and came home after two hours because they ran out of work. They sat around for two hours because that guaranteed they would get paid for eight. THEY ARE DESTROYING OUR COUNTRY.

How about prevailing wage? Chris worked for a construction company right before he left. He was making $14.00/hr. They did a job for the city. It was building them a huge paint booth to paint busses. State of the art. For that job he had to be paid $42.00 and HOUR!!! He worked it three weeks. He averaged 28 hrs per week, BUT THEY HAD TO PAY HIM FOR 40!! THEY ARE DESTROYING OUR COUNTRY.

You need to pay a little more attention to what's going on before you start blaming republicans for not caring about the blue collar guy. It's your democrats that are straining at the knat with the big three while they swallowed the camel with the banks.(To be fair, both parties have done the same thing)They both suck at this point.

Unions have strangled the workplace. Government interference has choked industry.

Years ago unions attacked the problem of worker abuse and a good thing came out of it. But that was never enough for the unions. They always want more. Just like the CEO's of large companies. It's never enough, they always want more.

Jeff, you know I love you brother. I don't think the big three make bad cars anymore. When I was selling cars years ago we couldn't keep enough Toyota Corrollas. There was a waiting list for a while. But across the street the Geo Prizm's backed up and they had over 40 on the lot. THEY WERE THE SAME CAR. But AMERICANS thought since they said GEO they were junk.

The big three have to overcome that bias. But they won't as long as they have to keep using cheap parts that fall off because they have to spend all the money on labor and OVERPAID EXECUTIVES!

OK, I've ranted enough. I'm disgusted with both parties.
 
Alexy said:
Give every American who wants to buy a Ford Chevy or Chrysler a 5K tax break . They sell the cars trucks and the people who buy them ( you and me) get a break too. the money stays in the US on the streets and not in a corprate bail out process hoping it will "trickle down."
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Interesting....
 
I believe free market has to run its course and let chips fall where they may far as giving money away. All the bailouts are is bandaides with no real healing involved.
They don't only just need retooling like some said, they need new design goals altogether.
See even though many of us in industry need power and may be able to afford bigger or more luxurious vehicles in times of plenty the main frugal minded retail market has other ideas related to fuel efficiency, greenness, and overall long term value. You know who I am talkign about.. the little guy next door that bought a tiny foreign car for all the right reasons..
Answer to me seems though that instead of pushing for to be more like this or that countries automakers we should consider the main thing of fuels that we are going to need to be using in them and design around them. Take the freaken bull by the horns and throw'em back in the pen is what I also need to say concerning supporting big oil agenda. Need to switch fuels to satisfy many a important issue. No we can't goto pure hydrogen or nuke powered autos or whatever abstract new alternative at this point so what do we have?. Where can we go for this fuel?. We can take the route of least technological resistance and bennefits by going the CNG route. If there was CNG on every corner for $1.25 (which could be a profitable figure if I've heard it right) people would be lining up to buy their Honda's or ford's or what have you brand. Honda makes the greenest car out there with their cng car and it works..ever been on a shuttle bus?.. it works!. Goobermint needs to put all that money and some straight into infrastructure all across country to accomodate and incentivise the move to this better alternative to oil. Problem is that once it happens and everyone is on bandwagon there won't be as much money to be made for all those invested already in big oil. There is lots of resistance there although not technological. Being that money is power and power is money the powers that be will do everything in their power/money to keep what they have until they theirselves position theirselves to better make money/power off customers. Now that oil has fell (least until production is cut) where is our drive to change or inspire it all? When yer paying $1.50 a gal you have no drive to make the big switch. Is all a big game and they got us and most legislative body in their pockets at every turn. ..Ahh and now we got the sob story, US automakers and goobermint failed to plan and wants to beat it out us that much more. SCREW IT..SUPPORT THE OPPOSITION IS WHAT I SAY!!

ps- How many realize out west we heat homes by natural gas being hardwired into homes? Although currently very expensive at a couple grand, they do have home compressing equipment that we could fill our vehicles with overnight. Honda supposedly leases them out some places is what I heard. I'd like to know what kinda sham burries/suppresses such goal...big money/power/oil
 
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