Guy Blackmon
Roundtable Host 2009
Absolutely Correct....It has nothing what so ever with founding anything, and everything to do with representation.
Most will understand the point I was making, some will not.
What would you do?
- Thread starter Tony Shelton
- Start date
Absolutely Correct....It has nothing what so ever with founding anything, and everything to do with representation.
Most will understand the point I was making, some will not.
tomtucson
New member
Well said Kory I want to third that sentiment
Paul Kassander
New member
Once the "offer" to help was changed to hire me to train you ... the real intentions of what this is all about became apparent to me. Very disappointing. Thank you for bringing this all to light tony.
apple
Moderator
Point taken.
Christopher
Moderator
This really shines a new light on everything, especially things being done behind the back of the pwn*, which I am sure most of the members don't have a clue of what is happening to their industry and making life harder to work thanks to their org. I am sure that members of that org would not like what their org is doing behind their back.
Bringing this back up
Tony Shelton
BS Detector, Esquire
Almost a month later.
Where is the PWNA Board of Directors?
Where is the PWNA Board of Directors?
Doug Rucker
Roundtable Host 2009
Probably to EMBARRASSED to surface....
N.A.P.W.O
New member
I rarely get into these kind of threads as they simply seem to be two sides of an on-going argument and I don't enjoy the level of "passion" that seems to go along with them. I comment now, not to agree with Tony or to disagree, but to mention the Atlanta side as has been brought up in this thread. I was active with the issues about wash water discharge in the Gwinnett County area of Georgia when all the commotion started. I did work for a supply company that was an active PWNA member at the time. I would like to give my accounts of how that situation came about and was handled:
Gwinnett County had traced high levels of heavy metals; oils; and other pollutants in the storm water system directly back to the gas station Quick Trip located through-out the area. Because of this, the county storm water managment decided to target flat surface cleaning techniques. This started the ball rolling. The QT's quit cleaning their stations under the pressure. Many were concerned how this would effect their mobile cleaning business. I saw people come into the store who had received fines. It was quickly determined after speaking to the local reps that much misinformation existed and something needed to happen so that the regulations would be written fairly and responsibly. The County had contacted our store to find out what kind of solutions may be available to help in correcting what they wanted corrected. I personally did demos for them of many different ways reclaim could be done. I showed things like Pro vac systems to sump pumps with garden hoses and filter bags on the end to catch solid debris. All the methods were ok'ed once they saw how they worked and how they would keep wash water out of the storm drains. Then there were several meetings between the AHJ's and local companies that were PWNA members where the BMP's were discussed and started to be written. The PWNA members involvment was because they were interested in NOT having unjust regs being created; the wording was specific and precise; and because it was clear that many of the officials that were trying to fix the "problem" did not have all the facts. I never saw a situation that had our store being in a position to to create standards that would let us control what equipment would be needed to be "compliant". We did however land in a position to help a contractor have appropriate equipment to deal with these new directives. I personally discussed options with customers over the years that let them pick $10,000 equipment to $150 equipment depending on their needs and desires. Because of our involvment we had a unique perspective as to what the county wanted from the contractor and we could help the contractor stay out of trouble. So I must say here that what I originally saw happen here in GA was a direct result of the Gov. starting to create rules that would effect the working contractor and a united force stepped in and helped develop appropriate guidelines. While we may have sold a few vac systems in relation to this, the help we could give a contractor who was stumbling through all the new rules I believe actually helped many save money rather than spend more. Other areas also had similar troubles happening. About this time a drought was also happening in the south east so areas were trying to also limit water usage. Once again it took ACTIVE org members to go in and help local contractors continue to work by educating officials on how our industry operated and used water. And they were successful in helping contractors be able to continue having an income.
So I do not believe that the orgs set out to do harm in this arena. I have seen the help that orgs have done for this industry first-hand. Where this has gone from there is anyones guess. I do not condone pushing these BMP's in areas that have appropriate ones in place. I do support the work that ALL the orgs do to advance the pressure washing industry. I think that the intentions are GOOD by our orgs as I have met many of the involved people over the years and everyone of them has led me to believe they are trying to make a difference. HOW that is being done does seem to be questionable at times.
I will also say the the leaders of these orgs have shown a very large lack of professionalism and tact in dealing with the controversial topic that is wash water control. These bannings and name callings and insinuations are of a level I have not seen in my over 15 years in this industry. What do you think these actions say to the newbies in the industry? Doesn't make an org or our industry look professional at all. Yet knowing the people involved, I understand their passions. We will forever have different opinions about this topic. I see more division than ever in our industry, not a working force that wants to make things better. I only hope that egos can be set aside and proffesional conduct is returned to our industry.
Remember the past, but lets work for a better future. I for one want our water ways to be kept clean. I believe there are ways for our industry to assist in this with out costing a contrator lots of money, or legislate every aspect of our work. It also will take a bit of effort from all to manage wash water to ensure we don't add to the problems that CAN be created due to our cleaning techniques. For these things that effect you, I appluade your digging, questions, and involvement of any org or action. If on the other hand, someones event or work area has nothing to do with you, let it be. We all have a right to be participants in this industry and even profit at it. We just don't have the right to adversly effect others livelihood in a negative way.
Get involved and be a positive influence and change will be a good thing! These are my thoughts. I certainly don't intend to chastise individuals. Rather I would like to point out where we have been, where we are and hopefully where we are going together.
Gwinnett County had traced high levels of heavy metals; oils; and other pollutants in the storm water system directly back to the gas station Quick Trip located through-out the area. Because of this, the county storm water managment decided to target flat surface cleaning techniques. This started the ball rolling. The QT's quit cleaning their stations under the pressure. Many were concerned how this would effect their mobile cleaning business. I saw people come into the store who had received fines. It was quickly determined after speaking to the local reps that much misinformation existed and something needed to happen so that the regulations would be written fairly and responsibly. The County had contacted our store to find out what kind of solutions may be available to help in correcting what they wanted corrected. I personally did demos for them of many different ways reclaim could be done. I showed things like Pro vac systems to sump pumps with garden hoses and filter bags on the end to catch solid debris. All the methods were ok'ed once they saw how they worked and how they would keep wash water out of the storm drains. Then there were several meetings between the AHJ's and local companies that were PWNA members where the BMP's were discussed and started to be written. The PWNA members involvment was because they were interested in NOT having unjust regs being created; the wording was specific and precise; and because it was clear that many of the officials that were trying to fix the "problem" did not have all the facts. I never saw a situation that had our store being in a position to to create standards that would let us control what equipment would be needed to be "compliant". We did however land in a position to help a contractor have appropriate equipment to deal with these new directives. I personally discussed options with customers over the years that let them pick $10,000 equipment to $150 equipment depending on their needs and desires. Because of our involvment we had a unique perspective as to what the county wanted from the contractor and we could help the contractor stay out of trouble. So I must say here that what I originally saw happen here in GA was a direct result of the Gov. starting to create rules that would effect the working contractor and a united force stepped in and helped develop appropriate guidelines. While we may have sold a few vac systems in relation to this, the help we could give a contractor who was stumbling through all the new rules I believe actually helped many save money rather than spend more. Other areas also had similar troubles happening. About this time a drought was also happening in the south east so areas were trying to also limit water usage. Once again it took ACTIVE org members to go in and help local contractors continue to work by educating officials on how our industry operated and used water. And they were successful in helping contractors be able to continue having an income.
So I do not believe that the orgs set out to do harm in this arena. I have seen the help that orgs have done for this industry first-hand. Where this has gone from there is anyones guess. I do not condone pushing these BMP's in areas that have appropriate ones in place. I do support the work that ALL the orgs do to advance the pressure washing industry. I think that the intentions are GOOD by our orgs as I have met many of the involved people over the years and everyone of them has led me to believe they are trying to make a difference. HOW that is being done does seem to be questionable at times.
I will also say the the leaders of these orgs have shown a very large lack of professionalism and tact in dealing with the controversial topic that is wash water control. These bannings and name callings and insinuations are of a level I have not seen in my over 15 years in this industry. What do you think these actions say to the newbies in the industry? Doesn't make an org or our industry look professional at all. Yet knowing the people involved, I understand their passions. We will forever have different opinions about this topic. I see more division than ever in our industry, not a working force that wants to make things better. I only hope that egos can be set aside and proffesional conduct is returned to our industry.
Remember the past, but lets work for a better future. I for one want our water ways to be kept clean. I believe there are ways for our industry to assist in this with out costing a contrator lots of money, or legislate every aspect of our work. It also will take a bit of effort from all to manage wash water to ensure we don't add to the problems that CAN be created due to our cleaning techniques. For these things that effect you, I appluade your digging, questions, and involvement of any org or action. If on the other hand, someones event or work area has nothing to do with you, let it be. We all have a right to be participants in this industry and even profit at it. We just don't have the right to adversly effect others livelihood in a negative way.
Get involved and be a positive influence and change will be a good thing! These are my thoughts. I certainly don't intend to chastise individuals. Rather I would like to point out where we have been, where we are and hopefully where we are going together.
Guy Blackmon
Roundtable Host 2009
Tracy,
I completely agree with most of your post. The attacks need to stop and the professionalism needs to be raised.....But so too must the sabotage from within our own Industry stop too.
I in no way believe the PWNA Board knew what was going on here (except for maybe 1) This was a rogue group of 4 or 5 people that used their "Titles" to misrepresent themselves to the AHJ's. Was it about selling equipment? No I don't think so. This was a case of super inflated Ego, Leaving a Legacy, personally targeting a Contractor in that area to hurt their business, and personal gain.
The evidence is in "Black & White" it cannot be refuted, it cannot be explained away, it cannot be defended.
Time and time again Contractors have been shown that the environmental directors of the PWNA have done nothing to come to the aid of Contractors when they needed it most. Time and time again these environmental directors have done their level best to portray our Industry as major sources of pollution instead of a "Solution For Pollution". Because of this Contractors are being targeted and in some cases hunted down by enforcement personnel and fined or jailed or both. I have no problem with this if the law was broken but it also gives the sigma to every law abiding Contractor out there not to mention our Entire Industry.
When Will The PWNA Put A Stop To This???
Personally I will never do business with any Company associated with the PWNA or it's enviromental directors until something is done about this, and I will advise anyone else not to either.
I completely agree with most of your post. The attacks need to stop and the professionalism needs to be raised.....But so too must the sabotage from within our own Industry stop too.
I in no way believe the PWNA Board knew what was going on here (except for maybe 1) This was a rogue group of 4 or 5 people that used their "Titles" to misrepresent themselves to the AHJ's. Was it about selling equipment? No I don't think so. This was a case of super inflated Ego, Leaving a Legacy, personally targeting a Contractor in that area to hurt their business, and personal gain.
The evidence is in "Black & White" it cannot be refuted, it cannot be explained away, it cannot be defended.
Time and time again Contractors have been shown that the environmental directors of the PWNA have done nothing to come to the aid of Contractors when they needed it most. Time and time again these environmental directors have done their level best to portray our Industry as major sources of pollution instead of a "Solution For Pollution". Because of this Contractors are being targeted and in some cases hunted down by enforcement personnel and fined or jailed or both. I have no problem with this if the law was broken but it also gives the sigma to every law abiding Contractor out there not to mention our Entire Industry.
When Will The PWNA Put A Stop To This???
Personally I will never do business with any Company associated with the PWNA or it's enviromental directors until something is done about this, and I will advise anyone else not to either.
Tony Shelton
BS Detector, Esquire
Tracy, that was a great post. Just like Guy, I agree with just about all of it.
You guys faced a problem and dealt with it locally.
It is my understanding that you and Sunbrite have been nothing but friends to the powerwashing community and I, personally, have always had a high level of respect for you, Pete, Nicole and anyone else who was on the staff there.
The unfortunate fact remains that almost all the contractors certified by the local government as environmentally compliant cleaners are now out of business. Perhaps if more was done BEFORE the problem came up in those 20 or so years that the PWNA did nothing more than blindly follow whatever Robert Hinderliter said maybe the problem could have been dealt with in a different manner.
The reason I brought up Atlanta was because I am waiting to see if Robert used his same technique of making us look like polluters in that area too and if it exacerbated the situation. What if information sent from Robert CAUSED the situation? We will only know when the requested correspondence is received, just like we didn't know about Las Vegas until we got the package sitting on our desk in black and white.
Like Guy said, I have no doubt most of the PWNA BOD knew nothing about what has been going on behind their backs. But we know for a fact that Michael Hinderliter knew. If I was on the UAMCC BOD and I found out that Scott Stone had done anything similar to what Robert, Jim and Michael have done do you think for one minute I wouldn't be demanding his resignation (and even his removal from the org) or, resigning myself if no action was taken?
What happened in Atlanta, as far as we know, was the PWNA doing its job to the best of its ability. In time, when all the correspondence is read through we will know for sure.
What happened in Las Vegas was a conspiracy to damage contractors and most likely contained illegal activities. There is no defense for it.
Thanks Tracy, for always being a friend to the contractors. You guys did a great job dealing with a terrible situation.
You guys faced a problem and dealt with it locally.
It is my understanding that you and Sunbrite have been nothing but friends to the powerwashing community and I, personally, have always had a high level of respect for you, Pete, Nicole and anyone else who was on the staff there.
The unfortunate fact remains that almost all the contractors certified by the local government as environmentally compliant cleaners are now out of business. Perhaps if more was done BEFORE the problem came up in those 20 or so years that the PWNA did nothing more than blindly follow whatever Robert Hinderliter said maybe the problem could have been dealt with in a different manner.
The reason I brought up Atlanta was because I am waiting to see if Robert used his same technique of making us look like polluters in that area too and if it exacerbated the situation. What if information sent from Robert CAUSED the situation? We will only know when the requested correspondence is received, just like we didn't know about Las Vegas until we got the package sitting on our desk in black and white.
Like Guy said, I have no doubt most of the PWNA BOD knew nothing about what has been going on behind their backs. But we know for a fact that Michael Hinderliter knew. If I was on the UAMCC BOD and I found out that Scott Stone had done anything similar to what Robert, Jim and Michael have done do you think for one minute I wouldn't be demanding his resignation (and even his removal from the org) or, resigning myself if no action was taken?
What happened in Atlanta, as far as we know, was the PWNA doing its job to the best of its ability. In time, when all the correspondence is read through we will know for sure.
What happened in Las Vegas was a conspiracy to damage contractors and most likely contained illegal activities. There is no defense for it.
Thanks Tracy, for always being a friend to the contractors. You guys did a great job dealing with a terrible situation.
Tony Shelton
BS Detector, Esquire
Bringing this back up for a little history
History repeats
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Ultimate House Wash
New member
I learned quite a bit today.
PWNA Water regulations History
Tony Shelton
BS Detector, Esquire
Industry amnesia. It's hard to believe that less than 6 years can erase memories.
Doug Rucker
Roundtable Host 2009
A lot of that going on.....
No need to worry, Powerwash .com is building online training so all distributors all over the country can send there customers to them to get training.