upstream >> downstream ??

what cleans better upstream?downstream?

  • up

    Votes: 22 24.2%

  • down

    Votes: 55 60.4%

  • dont know

    Votes: 9 9.9%

  • dont care

    Votes: 5 5.5%
  • Total voters
    91
A.TRKWASH said:
In Fleet Washing We Use Upsteam To Apply Our 2 Step Chemicals .. The Reason For Doing It Upstream Is That Your Applying Your Chemicals To The Painted Surface .. The High Pressure Is Pushing Through The Dirt To Apply The Chemical To The Painted Surface... Our Pressure Is Set At 2100 Psi ...
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We're doing the same thing by getting to the surface with pressure but we're doing it downstreaming. Not wrecking our equipment, not waiting for chemical changes, cause we're doing it at the gun. I'd be careful at that pressure. It's very easy to peel decals at that pressure. Our accounts would not let us run that high. In fact, we had a competitor running that pressure. We lost a garbage account to him. He proceeded to go in and peel their decals off because thats the only way he could have any success getting them cleaner. We got it back shortly thereafter...
 
Biodude said:
We're doing the same thing by getting to the surface with pressure but we're doing it downstreaming. Not wrecking our equipment, not waiting for chemical changes, cause we're doing it at the gun. I'd be careful at that pressure. It's very easy to peel decals at that pressure. Our accounts would not let us run that high. In fact, we had a competitor running that pressure. We lost a garbage account to him. He proceeded to go in and peel their decals off because thats the only way he could have any success getting them cleaner. We got it back shortly thereafter...
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Not waiting for chemical changes would save a little time thats for sure but we have a soaper and a rinser spraying at the same time. I still dont understand how the downstreaming thing works. Is the valve at the wand or where the hose comes out of the burner? If at the wand, does that mean your carrying around two hoses? If so, that seems way too heavy. I would rather walk back and turn to rinse.
 
magazine said:
Not waiting for chemical changes would save a little time thats for sure but we have a soaper and a rinser spraying at the same time. I still dont understand how the downstreaming thing works. Is the valve at the wand or where the hose comes out of the burner? If at the wand, does that mean your carrying around two hoses? If so, that seems way too heavy. I would rather walk back and turn to rinse.
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You must single step since you have a soaper and rinser only. You must also notice that your rinser has to do roughly twice the amount of work that the soaper does generally speaking, so the soaper waits for him, which also equals wasted time. Then what do you do if the soaper misses a wheel? Does the rinser call him back and sacrifice quantity, or does he ignore it and try to rinse that dirty spot a little harder and sacrifice quality? We two step clean, and for our setup we actually have three hoses coming up to the gun. Yes, a complete hose is heavier than a single hose that you are referring to. However, you have to remember that you aren't lifting the whole hose as you move around the equipment. Most of it outside of 3-5 feet is laying on the ground. The other thing that makes our setup unique is that you are most likely using a steel braided hose which is heavy while we don't. What do you do when a truck runs it over, because it will happen in the fleet washing business? Ours is a special hose which is lightweight yet is still able to withstand high pressure and rugged use. It is coupled with our lightweight chemical lines, and they're encased in a protective jacket which insulates the hoses and protects them at the same time. This setup allows us to wash very quickly with three guys working off the same truck, all able to clean individually and minimizing the wait time which adds to the bottom line.
 
Biodude said:
We're doing the same thing by getting to the surface with pressure but we're doing it downstreaming. Not wrecking our equipment, not waiting for chemical changes, cause we're doing it at the gun. I'd be careful at that pressure. It's very easy to peel decals at that pressure. Our accounts would not let us run that high. In fact, we had a competitor running that pressure. We lost a garbage account to him. He proceeded to go in and peel their decals off because thats the only way he could have any success getting them cleaner. We got it back shortly thereafter...
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Your pump life will only be noticeably shortened if your using an aggressive #1 containing HF or sulfuric, but no one uses a #1 with Sulfuric upstream because the smell is choking. Using a safer #1 that still preps the surface for the chemical reaction to neutralize the static electrical bond will accomplish a very good clean on the painted surfaces. A strong caustic #2 will also chemically wear the pump prematurely but once again going with something a little less aggressive will not hurt the pump really. You can't beat high pressure application for effectiveness.

In my experience 2100 PSI is safe for normal washing unless someone is using a soap that isn't cleaning very well so they get the nozzle right up to the surface and then they have to work at peeling it. 1500-2200 PSI is a perfect operating pressure for 2 step washing.

A final option, There is a soap manufacturer by me in Michigan (Hydro Chem Systems) who are experts at 2 step washing. They manufacture the soaps and supply a lot of mobile washers up here as well as most of the fleets doing their own washing. I buy my soap from them and it works better than any I have seen. I know of some guys who want to do two step washing but only have a single soap machine. When someone wants to use an aggressive #1 but is worried about pump wear, they downstream the #1 and upstream the #2. They also manufacture their own two step pressure washer, a gas engine for mobile use and a stationary electric one.
 
Ok, you know exactly what you are talking about. I get to a wheel all the time and it doesnt look like he hit it good enough. At first, I was a little leary but when you mentioned the dirty wheel, I am thinking that happens all the time. Although, bottom line is very important to our customers. An expensive setup and going through a lot of acid might get a little too costly. How much does your setup cost?
 
The postal service won't let anyone use anything more than 1600 psi. They have gone through the effort of testing different pressures to see when the vinyl decals start peeling. We run at 1250 psi but have 8 GPM. Actually, I wouldn't want to run at 2000 psi. I would get a severe headache from the wand smacking me in the head every time I pull the trigger!

Our cleaning system isn't for everyone. We have designed it for individuals that want to make money cleaning fleets (numerous trucks and equipment) and not for the part time truck washer. It is designed with speed, simplicity, and efficiency in mind. The gun and hose combo sells for $1200.00 each and the wash trucks we build have three of each on them, so you have three guys working off of them at the same time. For example, this weekend I will be washing roughly 125 trucks and will spend around $100-$110 in chemical to do that. I have drive time of 45 minutes to and from the job sites, start to finish around 9 hours, including a lunch break. So 7 hours of actual wash time=125 trucks. Not bad, but again, that's what its designed for....I tell new customers that they will spend up to $2.00 per vehicle chemical cost because they waste it and aren't experienced, but with a decent crew a person can cut it in half or less.
 
Larry Hinckley said:
The following are excerpts from an article that I wrote for Cleaner Times a few years back. The article in its entirety is too long to post. If anyone would like the full article let me know and I will email it to you.

The application of chemicals is one of the longest standing controversies in the power washing industry. There are just as many opinions on the correct method of doing so as there are chemical applicators. The one thing most contractors seem to agree on is that no single method will serve all circumstances efficiently. Of all the different methods, the three most often used are 1) down stream injection [after the pump], 2) chemical before the pump [through the pump], 3) and the chemical applicator pumps.

Each of these methods has their benefits as well as their limitations. Down stream chemical injection is most often used on cold pressure washers because of low cost and the ability to turn the chemical on and off at the wand. Chemical injection before the pump is most often used on hot pressure washers because of the ability to apply chemicals with hot water, which makes them more effective. And chemical application pumps are used where the chemicals are not compatible with the pressure washer.:D
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Hello Larry !
God, seeing You and BigBoy around here made me flash back home to Delco !
Almost like old times, now all we NEED are the Lance and the Car Wash Guys, LOL

When I was "causin trouble" over on The Grime Scene Beth told me what a "stinker' I can be.
I told her I learned for the BEST "trouble maker' ever, over on Delco, LOL

Larry, seriously, this upstream stuff makes me wonder.
How are you gonna upstream bleach and Sodium and Potassium Hydroxide ?
Will the PW Pumps take this abuse ?
Or, are we talking about soap ?
 
Chris they are talking about fleeeeeet awashun here.
NO PW pump could handle the bleach anywhoo.

...At least not for very long.
 
Blaine, can your gun/hose setup be added to an existing system or does it have to be a rig you build?

Just curious, It sounds like a great system, being able to switch chems at the gun, that would be nice to have.

I would like to talk to you about that, can you pm me a good time to call and number?

Thanks.





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when upstreaming, do you feel a slight bit more vibration at the gun. when i turn on the soap, i feel a barely noticeable increase in vibration at 3000psi. i have checked for air leaks but there is only one joint between the proportioner and the soap so it isnt an air leak. any ideas?
 
You shouldnt feel any vibration more than a second or two when the air moves through the line. If chemical is left in the valve when it falls below freezing, the valve will crack which will cause it to suck air slightly.
 
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thanks joe, but the proportioner is brand new ie. no crack. it is plumbed to the secondary inlet on the pump, does that make any difference? i didnt think there was a problem, but you can feel a difference, very slight, but still. i'm just scared of cavitation wearing down the pump.
 
In my opinion, it depends on what you are cleaning but I have founded when washing fleets, If I have time upstream cleans much better but much slower!!
 
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