truth or fiction ????

Are Jews central to the Holocaust?

By Gordon McFee

The first research in the late 1940s and early 1950s focused on the Jewishness of the Holocaust. Called the "Final Solution" by the Germans, it was the object of two pivotal studies, both of which had the Jews at the center of their treatment. The first was The Final Solution by Gerald Reitlinger and the second The Destruction of the European Jews by Raul Hilberg. Most major studies since have had the same focus: Lucy Dawidowicz (The War Against the Jews; Leni Yahil (The Holocaust); Hilberg (Perpetrators, Victims, Bystanders); Daniel Goldhagen (Hitler's Willing Executioners); Martin Gilbert (The Holocaust); Arad et al (Documents on the Holocaust); Yitzak Arad (Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka: The Operation Reinhard Death Camps) and so on.

Modern research has begun to deal more extensively with the suffering of other victims of the **** genocide. For example, homosexuals, Gypsies, prisoners of war, Russians, Poles, Catholic priests, Jehovah's Witnesses and others were more or less systematically murdered as the Holocaust continued. By the end of the war, as many as 6 million of these people had been killed, along with between 5 and 6 million Jews.

Does the focus on the Jewishness of the Holocaust take away from or minimize the suffering of the millions of non-Jews who were persecuted? Do the Jews, unintentionally perhaps, try to keep all the suffering for themselves? No. On the other hand, does the Holocaust have a particularly crucial and central Jewish element, even though millions of others died? Simply put, the answer is yes. The Holocaust, from its conception to its implementation had a distinctly Jewish aspect to it and, arguably without this Jewish aspect, there would have been no Holocaust. Most of the non-Jewish people would not have been killed because the killing machinery would not have been put into operation.

In this context, two points need to be examined: the particularly Jewish aspect of the Holocaust and the fact that this neither minimizes nor trivializes the suffering of others.

The Jewishness Of The Holocaust
Faithful to Hitler, the ****s picked out and specifically targeted the Jews, and they did this from the very beginning -- the **** Party Program of February 19201 to the very end Hitler's Testament of April 29, 1945.2 In fact, Hitler had written a letter to a Herr Gemlich in 1919 in which he called for the removal of the Jews if he ever took power.

Exactly when Hitler's eliminationist hatred of the Jews took form in his mind is still a matter of debate. Some accounts have him violently antisemitic when he still lived in Linz.3 Others equate it to his experiences in Vienna,4or to his gassing experience at the end of World War I,5 still others believe the antisemitism took on its virulent form in the early 1920s under the influence of Houston Stewart Chamberlain6 and Dietrich Eckart.7

In Mein Kampf, there are dozens of passages that vilify and demonize the Jews. A couple of examples suffice.

Was there any excrement, any shamelessness in any form, above all in cultural life, in which at least one Jew would not have been involved? As soon as one even carefully cut into such an abscess, one found, like maggots in a decaying body, often blinded by the sudden light, a kike.8

If we had at the beginning of, and during the war, subjected 12 or 15,000 of these Hebrew corrupters of the people to poison gas, as hundreds of thousands of our best German workers from all strata and occupations had to endure, then millions of victims of the Front would not have been in vain.9

The ****s harassed and brutalized the Jews throughout the 1920s during the "struggle for power." Speech after speech painted the Jews as Germany's "misfortune" and prophesied a time of reckoning.

When the ****s came to power in 1933, the Jews were their very first target. The infamous boycott against Jewish businesses took place in April 1933 and the first laws against the Jews were enacted as early as on April 7, 1933.10 Jews were progressively erased from almost every facet of German life.11 The Nuremberg Laws, passed in 1935, further tightened the noose, depriving the Jews of almost every remaining right and freedom.12 This culminated in the bloodiest pogrom to date the Kristallnacht (Night of Broken Glass) in November 1938. Over 100 Jews were murdered and a "fine" was levied against the Jews in excess of 1 billion RM.

By the outbreak of World War II, actions taken against the Jews included marking them13 and ghettoizing them.14 By the time of the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941, the decision had been taken to kill the eastern European Jews by shooting them where they were found (http://www.holocaust-history.org/hitler-final-solution/) and by the end of the year at the latest, the decision was taken to kill all European Jews. (http://www.holocaust-history.org/ december-12-1941/).

The one common thread throughout this "process of destruction," as Hilberg calls it, was the Jews. The Communists were often explicitly targeted as well, but the ****s believed that Communism was a creature of the Jews in any event. The expression often used was "Jews and other undesirables," and the Jews were almost always the first group targeted in any initiative. There is no doubt that they were the focal point from beginning to end.

The Germans set up an office on the "Jewish Question" under the direction of Adolf Eichmann -- the infamous Bureau IV B 4. The name used for the ultimate killing action was "the Final Solution of the Jewish Question," Others were drawn in -- with horrific results -- but the key object and common thread was always the Jews.

There are thousands of captured documents dealing with the killing actions. Almost every one of them deals with the Jews and there are almost no documents that deal with another target that do not also address the Jews. The Einsatzgruppen reports almost always separate out the Jews from the other people shot, going so far as to break down the Jews by age and gender (http://www.holocaust-history.org/ intro-einsatz).15 And the Report 51, submitted by Himmler to Hitler in 1943, breaks down the victims into a variety of categories (bandits, partisans, etc.), but only lists the Jews as "Jews executed."16

Finally, the Korherr Report is entitled "The Final Solution of the European Jewish Question: A statistical report,"17 and once again, addresses virtually only the Jews.

Hitler said before the outbreak of the war that if there were another war, he would annihilate the Jews.18 He said during the war that he was in the process of annihilating the Jews.19 And he said in his Testament that he had done exactly what he had said he would do.20

The ultimate aim and the primary target never varied. Others were murdered in the course of the Final Solution, e.g. Gypsies, Russian POWs, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, and so on, but the first and constant target was always the Jews. The Final Solution was intended for the Jews, was about the Jews and chiefly affected the Jews. There is no denying that, without the Jews, there is no Final Solution.

To minimize or trivialize the "Jewishness" of the Final Solution is to seriously understate, if not, unintentionally perhaps, deny its essence. This does not mean that the suffering of other groups is to be ignored; on the contrary, it was terrible. But without the Holocaust, without the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question", the others live. The term "holocaust" was coined to describe the uniquely Jewish aspect of the Final Solution. It does not seek to negate the suffering of the other victims.

Albert Speer put it well:

The hatred of the Jews was Hitler's driving force and central point, perhaps even the only element that moved him. The German people, German greatness, the Reich, all that meant nothing to him in the final analysis. Thus, the closing sentence of his Testament sought to commit us Germans to a merciless hatred of the Jews after the apocalyptic downfall. I was present in the Reichstag session of January 30, 1939 when Hitler guaranteed that, in the event of another war, the Jews, not the Germans, would be exterminated. This sentence was said with such certainty that I would never have doubted his intent of carrying through with it.21

It should be remembered that the centrality of the Jews in the Holocaust in no way lessens the killing of others. The Gypsies were marked for extermination in the same way as the Jews were and suffered terribly. (http://www.holocaust-history.org/ questions/gypsies.shtml)22 The testimony of Otto Ohlendorf at Nuremberg on this is chilling:

US prosecutor J. Heath: And what was the story with the Gypsies? I believe you have no idea how many Gypsies your commando killed?
Ohlendorf: No, I don't know.
Ohlendorf:There was no difference between the Gypsies and the Jews. The same order applied to both of them.23

NOTES

1. 4.Only "folkish" comrades can be state citizens. "Folkish" comrades can only be those of German blood, regardless of their religion. No Jew can therefore be a "folkish comrade".

2. "I have also left no doubt that, if the nations of Europe are again to be regarded as mere shares to be bought and sold by those international money and finance conspirators, then that race, Jewry, which is the real guilty party in this murderous struggle, will be saddled with the responsibility. I also made it clear that this time, not only would millions of children of European Aryan races starve, not only would millions of grown men meet their death, and not only would millions of women and children be burned or bombed to death in the cities, but that the real culprit would atone for his guilt, even if by more humane means." Adolf Hitler, Testament, April 29, 1945. See also Note 19 below.

3. Kubizek The Young Hitler I Knew

4. One of the wildly popular authors in Austria at this time was Lanz von Liebenfals, whose journal Ostara postulated a blond, blue-eyed master race - the Aryans - which was in perpetual danger from a parasitic subhuman race - the Jews. Liebenfals' influence can be seen in some of the more perverted imagery in Mein Kampf and in Julius Streicher's Der Stuermer.

5. See Ron Rosenbaum, Explaining Hitler, pages xliv-xlv, 376-377

6. Chamberlain's Grundlagen des 19. Jahrhunderts (Foundations of the 19th Century) [1899] postulated a superior Aryan race of "creators" and an inferior parasitic race - the Jews. It was wildly popular at the beginning of the 20th Century.

7. Eckart was an early mentor of Hitler's to the extent that he was one of people to whom Mein Kampf was dedicated. He co-wrote with Hitler Von Moses bis zum Bolschewismus: Zwiegespraeche zwischen Adolf Hitler und mir (From Moses to Bolshevism: Dialogues between Adolf Hitler and me) which painted a particularly repulsive picture of Jews.

8. Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Volume I, page 61

9. Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Volume II, page 772

10. "The Law for the restoration of the Civil Service"; Krausnick et al. Anatomie des SS-Staates, Deutscher Taschenbuch Verlag, Munich, 1999, page 574

11. Raul Hilberg, Die Vernichtung der europäischen Juden, Fischer Taschenbuch Verlag, Frankfurt am Main, 1990, Volume 1, pages 85-163

12. Hilberg, ibid., pages 73-84. Krausnick op cit., pages 579-585

13. Obligation to have Jewish names, forbidden to fly the Reich flag, obligation to wear the Star of David. Hilberg, op cit., pages 184-186

14. Gerald Reitlinger, Die Endlösung: Hitlers Versuch der Ausrottung der Juden Europas 1933-1945, Colloquium Verlag, Berlin, 1992, pages 59-79. See also the Jäger Report, reproduced in Klee, Dressen and Riess, The Good Old Days, The Free Press, New York, 1991, pages 46-54

15. Hilberg, op cit., Volume 2, pages 332-350

16. Gerald Fleming, Hitler and the Final Solution, University of California Press, Berkeley, 1984, pages 3, 110, 129

17. Fleming, op cit. page 139

18. "Jewry will have to adapt itself to respectable constructive activity as other peoples do, or it will sooner or later succumb to a crisis of unimaginable proportions.

If international finance Jewry in and outside Europe should succeed in once again plunging the nations into a world war, then the result will not be the victory of Jewry, but rather the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe!"

Reichstag Speech, January 30, 1939

19. "You will recall still that meeting of the Reichstag in which I declared: If Jewry perchance imagines that it can bring about an international world war for the annihilation of the European races, then the consequence will be not the annihilation of the European races, but on the contrary, it will be the annihilation of Jewry in Europe. I was always laughed at as a prophet. Of those who laughed then, countless ones no longer laugh today, and those who still laugh now will perhaps in a while no longer do so." Reichstag Speech, November 8, 1942

20. See note 2 above.

21. Sworn Affidavit, June 1977

22. Other information on this is in Robert N. Proctor Racial Hygiene: Medicine Under the ****sHarvard University Press; 1988; Martin Gilbert The Holocaust Henry Holt; 1985.

One of the better sites on this subject in the Internet is:
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/holcaust.htm

23. Testimony of Ohlendorf at Nuremberg, Text 46, S. 115. [German edition] Translation by author
 
Millen Checking In

Anybody ever see the movie"Being John Malkovich"? Well I'm being Jon Fife right now, and I have to thank him for letting me.

A quick thanks also to Grant, the post above spares me having to write a similar post.

I'm not going to try to convince anybody of anything in this thread, and I will comment only briefly on whether the holocaust really happened: It happened, we all know it, the numbers of people murdered by the ****'s has little bearing on how terrible it was.

Even if only a quarter of the number commonly claimed were killed, just because they were Jews, would that be a substantially different crime?

I can think of no reason why a reasonable person would feel the need to claim that the holocaust was/is some kind of "propaganda" event or tool.

There is damn little nifty or useful about the extermination of a substantial part of the population of Europe, on the orders and at the behest of ****s bent on world domination and the eugenic control of the human race.

I grew up in Bismarck, ND. There are few more German places on Earth, none in the Western Hemispere. I could hear German spoken on the street any day. I also commonly met German men with numbers tattooed on their arms. They didn't appear to be controlling the media when I saw them.

Bismarck, as well as being North Dakota's capitol, is on historic ground.Lewis and Clark and the Corps of Discovery wintered near the site as they made their way west, and were guests of the Mandan people, a farming and city dwelling tribe. The city they lived in was larger than St. Louis, both in extent, and in population, at the time of the Corps' visit.

Ten years later, the city was gone, and the Mandans were all but extinct. Smallpox reached them, and because the crew sent to innoculate them never went there, they perished. Faster than they could be buried. The survivors ran away from the city, scattered, and were absorbed by the Sioux (a traditional enemy) and by the Hidatsa and Arikara. When they were finally placed on a reservation, these tribes were collectively treated as The Three Affiliated Tribes.

Almost directly atop that Mandan city site, years later, was established Fort Abraham Lincoln. It is mostly famous now (if at all) for being the post Custer sallied forth from by steamboat, to his eventual demise on the Greasy-Grass river. (called Little Big Horn) by whites.

This fort stayed in action as a base from which to harry the Hunkpapa band of Lakotas, Sitting Bull's band, and to drive the other bands onto the reservations, and keep them there.

This was all part of the greatest genocide in recent history, and it happened here in the US. I have my doubts about whether anyone would like to call that a good use of propaganda.

Here is a related fact: During WWII Japanese-Americans, people born here, were interred at Fort Abraham Lincoln. Late in the war, a regiment of Americans of Japanese blood was raised from these camps. They fought with distinction, especially in Italy, against Kesselring's retreating Wehrmacht.

They were not drafted, but actually volunteered and had to engage the help of congressmen and senators to be allowed to fight. Even so, they were not allowed to fight against the Japanese that had attacked their homeland.

They volunteered because we weren't murdering them by the trainload.[

What we did to them cannot be made right, but it pales in comparison to genocide. We wrongly did this in response to an outside attack, and our own fears; the ****s killed millions after attacking countries they had made treaties with only months before.

I'll close with this little story about ****s, taken from my own family chest:

During the closing spasms of the war, the Germans were retreating from the baltic states, as the Red Army advanced. In Lithuania, an SS Colonel had been ordered to produce some cannon-fodder, and since the local population had helped remove their local jews, and since Lithuanians were counted as Aryans, the new troops would be inducted into the SS, and would be allowed to cover the retreat of the Wehrmacht and SS troops leaving for the Greater Reich.

It was convenient that the Red Army took no SS prisoners: The new troops would have reason to fight even harder.

Here is how the troops were allowed to volunteer. All the men of the village were made to stand on one side of the street, and all the women on the other. The Colonel arranged the men to his satisfaction, and then shot every fifth man in line. This left around twenty youngish men alive.

Then the German Officer then addressed the villagers. "Who here would like to join us in the glorious fight against the Bolsheviks?"

Those that survived the war, did so by escaping through Germany, before the partition fell. They were forbidden entry to the US and were witnesses to horrors. Some made it in, and that is how I have this story.

I have little doubt that Genocide against Jews took place. I have little doubt that it was as bad as it is portrayed to be. I have no love for ****s, or the cowards that emulate them.

As to the whole word "Jew" being in the bible, here is some news: The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, the ancient semitic language of the Jews. "Jew" as an identity, is a Germanic word, taken from the Latin word Iude. Latin has no "J", and "Judea" is what the Latin-speaking Romans called Israel/Palestine when they conquered it. Iudea (Judea) literally means, "Land of the people called Jews" in Latin.

Israel as a Kingdom had been long partitioned into two parts, when the Romans got there. Those parts were Isreal in the north and Judah in the south. Israel had ceased to be, and was ruled by Phillistines, a semitic people now called "Palestinians" for much the same reason that Iudea was called "Judea". Judeans were, ethnically and religiously, jews. There capitol was Jerusalem, sight of the Jewish Temple. The sign of a Jew in the eyes of God (according to the Bible) is circumcision and adherence to the Law of Moses. This is what is required to qualify as His chosen people.

Have you ever seen a crucifix with the sign on top? Usually the letters "INRI"? Since that doesn't spell Jesus, what do you suppose it means?

Here is the answer: IESVS NAZARENUS REX IVDEORUM. This is a label in latin that literally translates thusly: Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews. The roman soldiers put this sign up to ridicule the Jew Jesus, because they thought all Jews were rediculous. Especially one that believes he is more powerful, even if he were a king, than a roman governor.

Other languages use other words for all the words we have, that is how it works, so don't be surprised that the Bible is light on identifiers in English, since it was written before there was an English.

Sorry if the tone of this has been a little crabby, but I've been plagued with computer trouble and little sleep so far this year. This is written in one draft, so pardon the errors, please, and also realize this was without notes or quotes, so I have paraphrased freely. I could go on, but I must sleep.
 
Thank you Jon (Millen)
 
thanks john,here is an addition an not an arguement. What is sooooo important that we overlook all the other forms of genocide(i know we have brought some up) ? The point i wanted to make was simply that everyone spends soooo much time and energy defrending the jew and no one else, why? I am only curious and it really is of no concern but it drives me crazy that people can get so worked up over something that has no effect them or their heritage unless you are jewish , i guess maybe its because we are not allowed to forget it by the jew controlled media !!!!! IMHO
 
Okay lets talk Somalia or Sudan or any of the other genocide atrocoties. There all wrong. The holocost was in the media only a limited amount until many many years after the war ended. Todays general population doesn't get involved in causes like people did in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Remember the anti vietnam protests...now it is a bumper sticker protest of the Iraq War. The general public doesn't even read the newspaper anymore, they just catch a few minutes of the news at eleven and then flip to some sit-com and tune out on the problems of the world
 
NOTE: RUSS, THAT WAS SCOTT MILLEN POSTING UNDER MY NAME (READ FIRST LINE). Don't have time to read the posts right now, but as I said earlier, I was going to allow Scott access to this thread w/ my acct., and he'll attribute his posts to himself.
 
NOTE: RUSS, THAT WAS SCOTT MILLEN POSTING UNDER MY NAME (READ FIRST LINE). Don't have time to read the posts right now, but as I said earlier, I was going to allow Scott access to this thread w/ my acct., and he'll attribute his posts to himself.

my bad jon , i was not directing that at you personally it was a general question ,sorry if i seemed like i was argueing with you .
 
Without reading all the long post regarding the issues of the Jew and the State of Israel. A few points to keep in minds, the Jews have always lived on that land, the UN just established a State.

The phrase Palestine People is just a feel good slogan, they lived in Jordon.

With all the open sand and palm trees a small strip of land was given to a group of European Jews to create a democratic state and they call it Israel. Now what could be wrong with this open UN vote in 1946.

The Press is controlled by Jews-Why don’t we say all Jews have hook noses. Both of these statements are simply lacking any educated reasoning.

The trials at Nuremberg placed the defendants on trial for crimes against humanity not against the Jews. It is clear that the major numbers fell into the Jewish column, however others perished as well. The crime was truly against Humanity.
 
Without reading all the long post regarding the issues of the Jew and the State of Israel. A few points to keep in minds, the Jews have always lived on that land, the UN just established a State.

The phrase Palestine People is just a feel good slogan, they lived in Jordon.

With all the open sand and palm trees a small strip of land was given to a group of European Jews to create a democratic state and they call it Israel. Now what could be wrong with this open UN vote in 1946.

The Press is controlled by Jews-Why don’t we say all Jews have hook noses. Both of these statements are simply lacking any educated reasoning.

The trials at Nuremberg placed the defendants on trial for crimes against humanity not against the Jews. It is clear that the major numbers fell into the Jewish column, however others perished as well. The crime was truly against Humanity.


good post dave
 
good post dave
Had Japan won the war, Americans might be on trial for rounding up Japanese Americans ?

Had Germany won, ditto ....
 
You might be right-but they LOST-and thanks to the US,GB and Russia.

Just because it is logical does not make it right-and I am not sure you would want to live in a world that is run by the likes of Hitler and Tojo. The Imperial Army had contest on how many head they could cut off in a hour-think of it as if your mother was number 31-that should put a new spin to it.
 
You might be right-but they LOST-and thanks to the US,GB and Russia.

Just because it is logical does not make it right-and I am not sure you would want to live in a world that is run by the likes of Hitler and Tojo. The Imperial Army had contest on how many head they could cut off in a hour-think of it as if your mother was number 31-that should put a new spin to it.
Hitler loved the Homeland, and the German people loved him, and followed him into War.

You cannot say for certain that a World run by Hitler would be any worse then a world run by George Bush, LOL
 
Hitler dreamed of world domination, but Bush...Oh nevermind
 
Hitler dreamed of world domination, but Bush...Oh nevermind
Bush dreamed of taking him some Oil, and getting his buddy Cheyney's Old Company Haliburton sweetheart no bid Govt contracts.

He flat lied to us about WMD.

History will show him as what he was, the worst American President ever.
 
Oh please - no point in a response.
 
yea, those southerners!
 
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