Time to stir it up
- Thread starter Grant
- Start date
RustyACE
President CHDCA
What's your take? I can clearly see both sides of the issue.
I went and bid a Mexican restaurant in a 3 story hotel today. Has been there for 9 years.
6 filter, galvanized hood. 3 stories of inaccessible (leaking) ductwork leading to a huge metal box (6 ft x 6ft x 6ft) which had the make up air ductwork, hvac ductwork and grease exhaust duct work coming out of it. No access panels in sight. Closest access to the attic is at least 50 feet away (crawling through rafters with openings the size a small child could get through).
The system has been cleaned by our competitor for the past 9 years, now they want us.
I took a look at the system and the only thing that can be cleaned is the fan and the hood. Forget the ductwork.
There is no way I can clean this system, and if we did, as I explained to the owner, you would have to replace the entire grease exhaust system at a cost of at least $20,000. The owner looked at me like I was crazy.
We've got one of our members that has a new state fire marshal (that was involved with the RI club fire fiasco) who was handed his butt in a sling during that club fire.
Now he is walking tall and carrying a big stick. He has made it very clear that anyone involved in the grease exhaust system is responsible if there is a fire.
If you clean any system that has deficiencies and don't notify him, you are liable period. If they have a downblast fan, inaccessible ductwork, etc. You are required to notify him and he puts them out of business till they fix it. It's very difficult to be the police for the State FM and still have customers, so you have to walk a very high tight rope.
Basically, our member doesn't clean any exhaust system unless it's up to code. And he has to notify the State FM (even if he doesn't clean it) so that it can be fixed.
This new State FM's attitute is that he doesn't care, he'll shut you down till you fix it right. He's holding the contractor that installed it responsible. The one example that he gave me is a restaurant that ductwork that has been bolted and then wrapped and leaks that was installed 10 years ago. The FM is making the contractor gut the job and do it right.
Of course the restaurants will have to pay more to actually bring the restaurant up to code.
All I'm saying is that hammering on the hood cleaner is a easy target because we set our selves up for this.
If the grease exhaust system is properly installed, and designed to be cleaned from day one, then it can be cleaned.
We get ourselves in trouble by trying to clean systems that can't properly be cleaned.
That is why I feel so strongly that a person must be properly trained, qualified and ceritified to clean these grease exhaust systems. Not just buy a video and read a book and "watch" someone else do it for a free ride.
There is a lot of liability that can occur if the people that we train can't clean a grease exhaust system to modern fire code standards. Our guys personally will clean 12+ hoods during the week of training. Over and over till we are convinced that they can do it entirely from start to finish by themselves. Then we hammer home the fire codes and they have to take an exam.
Our system may not be perfect, but I'll stand behind anyone of our cleaners, because I know that they were trained right and know the fire codes.
I went and bid a Mexican restaurant in a 3 story hotel today. Has been there for 9 years.
6 filter, galvanized hood. 3 stories of inaccessible (leaking) ductwork leading to a huge metal box (6 ft x 6ft x 6ft) which had the make up air ductwork, hvac ductwork and grease exhaust duct work coming out of it. No access panels in sight. Closest access to the attic is at least 50 feet away (crawling through rafters with openings the size a small child could get through).
The system has been cleaned by our competitor for the past 9 years, now they want us.
I took a look at the system and the only thing that can be cleaned is the fan and the hood. Forget the ductwork.
There is no way I can clean this system, and if we did, as I explained to the owner, you would have to replace the entire grease exhaust system at a cost of at least $20,000. The owner looked at me like I was crazy.
We've got one of our members that has a new state fire marshal (that was involved with the RI club fire fiasco) who was handed his butt in a sling during that club fire.
Now he is walking tall and carrying a big stick. He has made it very clear that anyone involved in the grease exhaust system is responsible if there is a fire.
If you clean any system that has deficiencies and don't notify him, you are liable period. If they have a downblast fan, inaccessible ductwork, etc. You are required to notify him and he puts them out of business till they fix it. It's very difficult to be the police for the State FM and still have customers, so you have to walk a very high tight rope.
Basically, our member doesn't clean any exhaust system unless it's up to code. And he has to notify the State FM (even if he doesn't clean it) so that it can be fixed.
This new State FM's attitute is that he doesn't care, he'll shut you down till you fix it right. He's holding the contractor that installed it responsible. The one example that he gave me is a restaurant that ductwork that has been bolted and then wrapped and leaks that was installed 10 years ago. The FM is making the contractor gut the job and do it right.
Of course the restaurants will have to pay more to actually bring the restaurant up to code.
All I'm saying is that hammering on the hood cleaner is a easy target because we set our selves up for this.
If the grease exhaust system is properly installed, and designed to be cleaned from day one, then it can be cleaned.
We get ourselves in trouble by trying to clean systems that can't properly be cleaned.
That is why I feel so strongly that a person must be properly trained, qualified and ceritified to clean these grease exhaust systems. Not just buy a video and read a book and "watch" someone else do it for a free ride.
There is a lot of liability that can occur if the people that we train can't clean a grease exhaust system to modern fire code standards. Our guys personally will clean 12+ hoods during the week of training. Over and over till we are convinced that they can do it entirely from start to finish by themselves. Then we hammer home the fire codes and they have to take an exam.
Our system may not be perfect, but I'll stand behind anyone of our cleaners, because I know that they were trained right and know the fire codes.
Grant
Administrator
MY take, well as I only have a couple of minutes this morning, my take is that lawyers will take you to the mat every time, so you need to cover your butt, and document everything. Now here is a what if...Since lawyers and insurance companies subrogate everything and try to fix blame with everyone except thier client, how long will it be before we hear about the exhaust cleaning school or certifying "authority" (PWNA, Phil Ackland, Ikeca or even CHDCA) is brought into a lawsuit. How many times a year can you afford to pay your deductable? The truth is for these certifiers that a good attorney will keep you out of hot water, but you will have to pay your deductable and your attorney each time. Not cheap.
RustyACE
President CHDCA
Exactly. You've hit the head of the nail with your verbal hammer this morning.
The implication is that if I'm "Phil Ackland (tm)" certified that I'll be too smart and have too good of paperwork to get sued. This isn't the case.
When it comes to lawyers, they'll just hold you up to a higher standard and preach to the jury about how much of an expert you are because you are "Phil Ackland" ceritified.
I think that ceritification should be at the NFPA level with them determining who is and who isn't ceritified.
The truth of the matter is that if the NFPA starts certifying individuals as NFPA 96 specialist then all the wind (ie profit) is taken out of the sails of the author's books.
This isnt' the right approach. I think that it is very alienating (CA term
for the leader of a certification program to be the leader in suing hood cleaners. Not popular to say, but I've never been known to not state the obvious because someone might become uncomfortable.
The implication is that if I'm "Phil Ackland (tm)" certified that I'll be too smart and have too good of paperwork to get sued. This isn't the case.
When it comes to lawyers, they'll just hold you up to a higher standard and preach to the jury about how much of an expert you are because you are "Phil Ackland" ceritified.
I think that ceritification should be at the NFPA level with them determining who is and who isn't ceritified.
The truth of the matter is that if the NFPA starts certifying individuals as NFPA 96 specialist then all the wind (ie profit) is taken out of the sails of the author's books.
This isnt' the right approach. I think that it is very alienating (CA term
for the leader of a certification program to be the leader in suing hood cleaners. Not popular to say, but I've never been known to not state the obvious because someone might become uncomfortable.