Surface cleaner swivel leaking

Thanks Chris. I just did not sleep to well on this one, my mined was running at 1.00am.

Another improvement BE swivels could make is to reposition the hole where the water exits from when the seal is leaking.....place it on top instead of below, that way you can see when its busted.

I observed also the the trigger gun is rated at less gpm (7)...than the swivel (8gpm). I emailed them on this and asked if their SC arms were balanced.
 
810f250 said:
I think one change that could be made in the BE swivel design is that the rotating face of the mechanical seal should be removable from the shaft. (its current design you would have to change the shaft to replace the rotating face, that would mean removing the bearings too). Its not the best thing to only change one face of a mechanical seal.

Anyone run their surface cleaners with an in-line high pressure filter?
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A friend of mine used to but it clogged up so much he removed it.

If there was a larger filter so you did not have to clean it every day or every few hours, that would be nice.

I agree about the deposits, that is probably what is making my swivels not last too long when they are not being used all the time, in my case lack of work is making them go bad. I will be trying a new idea this next week, a new type of bearing that should hold up to the lack of use and hold up better to resisting rust. I am having a swivel, probably 2 rebuilt this week and give them a try and hopefully the lack of use will no longer be a problem.
 
810f250 said:
Thanks Chris. I just did not sleep to well on this one, my mined was running at 1.00am.

Another improvement BE swivels could make is to reposition the hole where the water exits from when the seal is leaking.....place it on top instead of below, that way you can see when its busted.

I observed also the the trigger gun is rated at less gpm (7)...than the swivel (8gpm). I emailed them on this and asked if their SC arms were balanced.
Click to expand...


Nigel, I have a tennis ball holding the guns open, I control the surface cleaner with the ball valve on the end of the hose on all the surface cleaners. I will be removing all the guns next week and changing out the hose to 3/8" hose and getting rid of the 1/4" hose that comes with some of them.

I will also be changing the handle on the Stainless Steel 24" surface cleaner and removing the rear castors and installing a set of wheels and solid handle like on the Big Guy and Steel Eagle. That machine is either a Whirl A Way or BE, not really sure, they might be the same product but sold by a lot of vendors out there. It is a 3 bar system.
 
810f250 said:
Hey guys here is a video I just made of the internals of a failed BE High Speed Swivel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ47IRc9MQs

Tony or anyone I dont know how to embed it sorry.

Guys post some other types if possible. I would like to see why the others are better.</EMBED>
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I am still at it.

I just wanted you all to note when I say mechanical seal in the video, I mean the complete sealing system, including the O rings.

After I disassembled and examined my 3rd BE swivel the commonality I observed was the damaged viton o ring on the stationary face nipple (highest o ring in photo) and sub par sealing faces.

I attempted a Mc Gyver repair, by filling the top O ring groove on the stationary face of the mechanical seal with -PVC thread seal and using a torch to melt the ends together. I then took the finest sand paper I had and wet polished the mating faces of the seal and reassembled everything.

The swivel was now holding pressure of about 3100 psi with no leakage. I think after the course of last nights washing I felt the pressure dropped but I did not confirm. After thinking about the entire seal design, some small changes may make it better. (attached is a swivel photo from the envirospec.com catalog):

1)the swivel is rated for 8 gpm MAX @ 4000 psi MAX at 180F MAX, the inlet to the mechanical seal only measures 3/16" I think that is to small for anything over 6gpm (I wonder what is the smallest portion in a trigger gun?)

2)The water stream prior to entering the nipple on the stationary face of the mechanical seal may have turbulent flow. This is due to the water having to pass through the spring before it enters the nipple on the stationary face of the seal.

The flow maybe so turbulent and the volume of 8 gpm so great that it may cause the current O ring (on the stationary seal face nipple to be over stressed and fail easily)

That O ring has a greater chance of damage (compared to the 2 others in the swivel assembly) because its outer diameter slides on the inner body of the swivel.

The single O ring design on that nipple can possibly be improved by having 2 Orings on that stationary sealing face nipple, it would act as a double seal and also provide straighter movement along the center of the stationary face. (this movement is caused every time the trigger is opened and closed to the surface cleaner)

3) Increase the surface area of the sealing faces (if it is going to be rated at such a high maximum flow)

Basically make it beefier LOL.
 

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810f250 said:
I am still at it.

I just wanted you all to note when I say mechanical seal in the video, I mean the complete sealing system, including the O rings.

After I disassembled and examined my 3rd BE swivel the commonality I observed was the damaged viton o ring on the stationary face nipple (highest o ring in photo) and sub par sealing faces.

I attempted a Mc Gyver repair, by filling the top O ring groove on the stationary face of the mechanical seal with -PVC thread seal and using a torch to melt the ends together. I then took the finest sand paper I had and wet polished the mating faces of the seal and reassembled everything.

The swivel was now holding pressure of about 3100 psi with no leakage. I think after the course of last nights washing I felt the pressure dropped but I did not confirm. After thinking about the entire seal design, some small changes may make it better. (attached is a swivel photo from the envirospec.com catalog):

1)the swivel is rated for 8 gpm MAX @ 4000 psi MAX at 180F MAX, the inlet to the mechanical seal only measures 3/16" I think that is to small for anything over 6gpm (I wonder what is the smallest portion in a trigger gun?)

2)The water stream prior to entering the nipple on the stationary face of the mechanical seal may have turbulent flow. This is due to the water having to pass through the spring before it enters the nipple on the stationary face of the seal.

The flow maybe so turbulent and the volume of 8 gpm so great that it may cause the current O ring (on the stationary seal face nipple to be over stressed and fail easily)

That O ring has a greater chance of damage (compared to the 2 others in the swivel assembly) because its outer diameter slides on the inner body of the swivel.

The single O ring design on that nipple can possibly be improved by having 2 Orings on that stationary sealing face nipple, it would act as a double seal and also provide straighter movement along the center of the stationary face. (this movement is caused every time the trigger is opened and closed the surface cleaner)

3) Increase the surface area of the sealing faces (if it is going to be rated at such a high maximum flow)

Basically make it beefier LOL.
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Nigel, you are so scientific. I'm getting goosebumps...oh, that's not a goosebump! :bow-down:
 
Nigel, have you thought about going to another brand of swivel?

The Talon sold by Steel Eagle or the Deublin would be good choices.

Supposedly the Talon is about $80.00 in parts to rebuild.

The Deublin is around $300 to rebuild and about a week turn around but....if you are not in a hurry, Steel Eagle can send it out and it takes 3 to 4 weeks and is only $200 for the rebuild.

I have not done anything to my Deublin swivel on the Steel Eagle surface cleaner, it is 5.5 years old and I run it with hot water and cold but that swivel holds up great.

When you do the math, it would probably be cheaper in the long run to spend the money on the Deublin.
 
I have thought about other swivels, mostly the mosmatic DYC with the adapter kit to fit the BE's surface cleaners.

Jim ( "Heat Master" Jim that is LOL), says that Deublin is the best.

I was thinking of just repairing the BE's with BE parts (and possibly going to my local machine shop and fine out the pricing to put another groove for a second O ring on the nipple).

And possibly buy a Mosmatic 21" or 30" Vacuum surface cleaner, as I would like to do some vacuum recovery eventually. Then I would have the BE's as back up which is custom set up for vacuum recovery already (never tested).
 

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Great Video. I will try to get some more videos up on unit repair before the year is out. Maybe we can put up a section for repair video links.
 
Nigel

How are you? I think the carbide seal should last almost forever. I've had a mosmatic, dyc i think, for years. The couple of times it started to leak its always the o-ring. First time I bought the kit but later I realized the carbide was fine, it was just the o-ring. I think the dyc goes for like $140, mine runs perfect.
 
Larry Hinckley said:
Great Video. I will try to get some more videos up on unit repair before the year is out. Maybe we can put up a section for repair video links.
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Thats a great idea Larry. I love the ones you guys have on youtube.



Paul Kassander said:
Looks good Nigel I think the air gap on the bottom shroud may be a bit big though.
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You are right Paul, it would just eat up a vacuums cfm, never tested it



tomtucson said:
Nigel

How are you? I think the carbide seal should last almost forever. I've had a mosmatic, dyc i think, for years. The couple of times it started to leak its always the o-ring. First time I bought the kit but later I realized the carbide was fine, it was just the o-ring. I think the dyc goes for like $140, mine runs perfect.
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All is well Tom ............. How about you?,

my seal face on one was pitted badly. Back in the day on the ammonia plant we had a seal face polisher and an O ring repair kit in the shop. The o ring kit has various thickness of vition lengths and you would splice the length and use the adhesive to join it. I was a great fix in most cases.
 
I put new seals in our 24" whisper wash ground force today. Lots O fun,but it's not weeping anymore and only took maybe an hour.To bad I realized after the fact, I didn't need to press the bearings out to get them all in.Lesson learned,but now I know what to expect if I have to do a full rebuild.
I need to take the lil 16" whirl-a-way out of moth balls and rebuild it.I have the o-ring around here somewhere.
 
Kemp said:
Excellent post and video. Thanks,:thumbup:
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Glad I could help, it was a learning experience for me too.

Squirtgun said:
I put new seals in our 24" whisper wash ground force today. Lots O fun,but it's not weeping anymore and only took maybe an hour.To bad I realized after the fact, I didn't need to press the bearings out to get them all in.Lesson learned,but now I know what to expect if I have to do a full rebuild.
I need to take the lil 16" whirl-a-way out of moth balls and rebuild it.I have the o-ring around here somewhere.
Click to expand...

Are the components/design in the Whisper washer Swivel similar to the BE swivel?

I was thinking although the bearings may seem to rotate good,..... the bearings have a dual function,.. they take thrust loads when the trigger is opened and closed (trapped pressure unloaders being the most violent). so if the bearing race is worn just a little........... the inlet valve has to travel further to seat on rotating face (the further it travels the less force is applied to the faces and also the further the O ring has to slide possibly creating wear on the Outer diameter of the O ring).

If you have the tools to measure the thrust (dail guage indicator or laser) it maybe a good idea to change the bearing. (this is where quality bearings matter)
 
810f250 said:
Glad I could help, it was a learning experience for me too.



Are the components/design in the Whisper washer Swivel similar to the BE swivel?

I was thinking although the bearings may seem to rotate good,..... the bearings have a dual function,.. they take thrust loads when the trigger is opened and closed (trapped pressure unloaders being the most violent). so if the bearing race is worn just a little........... the inlet valve has to travel further to seat on rotating face (the further it travels the less force is applied to the faces and also the further the O ring has to slide possibly creating wear on the Outer diameter of the O ring).

If you have the tools to measure the thrust (dail guage indicator or laser) it maybe a good idea to change the bearing. (this is where quality bearings matter)
Click to expand...


There is no similarities between the 2 swivels Nigel.Whiper wash really engineered it well.IMO,the whirl aways are much less complex.
Now that I have had it apart it should be easy/faster when I do need to replace bearins or seals again.
 
Post some pics or video Scott.

We all would like to see all the different manufacturers designs.

Mosmatic, Steel eagles deublin and talons , whisper wash, and the Landa water jet. I even here there is a swivel with a no O ring design.

The only manufacturer I know of to admit it has a heavy duty and medium duty swivel is Landa, water jet and cyclone respectively.

Specs of the cyclone.
http://www.propowerwash.com/board/upload/showpost.php?p=128623&postcount=4

I guess BE swivels might be "light duty".
 
810f250 said:
Post some pics or video Scott.

We all would like to see all the different manufacturers designs.

Mosmatic, Steel eagles deublin and talons , whisper wash, and the Landa water jet. I even here there is a swivel with a no O ring design.

The only manufacturer I know of to admit it has a heavy duty and medium duty swivel is Landa, water jet and cyclone respectively.

Specs of the cyclone.
http://www.propowerwash.com/board/upload/showpost.php?p=128623&postcount=4

I guess BE swivels might be "light duty".
Click to expand...

LOL....pic or video......hahahahahaha.

Nigel we all aren't as talented as you are.I would say the WW and Dueblin swivels(rotary unions) are pretty close quality wise IMO.I have a dueblin swivel our of a steel eagle laying around here some where.........hmmmm where the heck is that thing
 
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