BS Detector, Esquire
First of All....At most churches they have problems one way or another, however they do not discuss their problems openly in the congregation for all to see.... husband, wifes, children and visitors!
It is behind closed doors!!!!
What ever the problem is it is supposed to be handled by the head of the church, most of the time the problem is fixed and the congregation knows nothing about it and worship is not disturbed,
and they ones who do know only know by rumors and hearsay which stands a good chance to be inaccurate.
If you want a church to destroy a church real quick......
Let the deacons or congregation get a chance to get up on the pulpit and voice their opinion .....You would lose most your members and defiantly if someone visited they would never come back!!!
Anyways.... this is my prospective of the problem.
Hope someone will benefit from it.
Tony you have to stop picking me out, you act like I am the only Christian here .
I can't believe what I'm hearing here.
I'm familiar with the NT teaching on rooting out problems in the church. We are told to first bring it to the accused, then in front of witnesses, then to the whole church.
If your church is succeeding at keeping things quiet it either means one of two things
1) in every case they are able to produce repentence by confronting the person in private. or
2) They are trying it in private, it isn't working but they are willing to let it go for the sake of "peace" in the church.
If #1 is the answer, then hallelujah, your church is doing a great job. If it is #2, then you need to speak to someone there and show them these verses and ask them how they fit in:
Matthew 18 15“If your brother sins against you,<sup>b</sup> go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’<sup>c</sup> 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
How about this one:
I Cor. 5 19Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.
I Cor. 5 1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature<sup>a</sup> may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
Does that sound like Paul is telling the church to handle it in private? Sounds to me like he has the view that when something is poisonous it should be publicly exposed and expunged!
Al, I apologize for "picking you out", but you are bringing it on yourself by insinuating that being a Christian requires that we all sweep everything under the rug and hold hands while singing Kum Bah Yah! If that is your view of Christianity, you have all the right in the world to believe that. But don't be offended when others point out their differing views.
How many churches could have been saved in the past if the few who knew about adultery and theft at the top would have just revealed that information instead of allowing it to go on and kill the congregation?
Realize, while the situation in question is NOT a religious one, we, for the most part have handled it in exactly the same way Paul suggested for the church to handle it.
FIRST - we offered open dialogue with questions to the org TT and ED.
SECOND - our questions were censored so we went to phone calls and emails and pm's with questions (and accusations) to the TT and ED
THIRD - I don't know about everyone else, but I PERSONALLY AND PRIVATELY went to Carlos begging him to simply be honest.
FOURTH - when he wasn't honest and showed no intention of being honest I brought it before the "congregation" of contractors publicly.
These other guys have ALL tried to handle this privately. John gave them DAYS to fix the problem, but Carlos, as usual, chose to run to the earthly incarnate of the devil himself (an attorney) instead of just answering the accusations.
How has this been wrong Al? Can you suggest a more biblical way of handling this? Am I missing something? Does the bible teach me to walk away when I see the possibility of others being hurt by deception. If so please provide me with the evidence of that and I will repent.