Are we in the fire prevention business

Are exhaust cleaners in the fire prevention business?

  • Yes

    Votes: 22 57.9%

  • No

    Votes: 16 42.1%
  • Total voters
    38
mbryan

mbryan

New member
Here is a good article on Phil Acklands site about fire prevention and kitchen exhaust cleaners.

http://www.philackland.com/Article_009.html


The guy that responded to this article basically says that we are cleaners and not in the fire prevention business (near the bottom of the page) and Phil Ackland disagrees.

It would be interesting to find out how many of you think we are one or the other.

Personally I think we are cleaners and the job we do prevents fires from spreading. There is no way that a greasy exhaust has ever been responsible for starting a fire.
 
prevention [Show phonetics]
noun
when you stop something from happening or stop someone from doing something:

I voted no.As you can see from the definition above,all we do is clean grease from hoods ducts etc..In no way preventing a fire.

I call it fire minimization.

minimization[Show phonetics]
verb [T]
1 to reduce something to the least possible level or amount:
We must minimize the risk of infection.
Environmentalists are doing everything within their power to minimize the impact of the oil spill.
NOTE: The opposite is maximize.
 
I'll try again.
I define my job in simple understandable terms - I am a Vegetable Byproduct Extirpation Specialist Technician, or 'V-BEST' for short.

Richard
 
I guess you could use the same logic with people who pick up trash in the restaurant. If enough litter is strewn about, and there is a fire, then all that litter will burn and add "fuel" to the fire.

TPUG= Trash Picker Upper Guy cTPUG= certified Trash Picker Upper Guy

Now if the restaurant only hires the "TPUG" or the expert "cTPUG" once every 6 months to clean up all the trash, then everything seems to work out OK. But on the other hand, what if the trash guy gets called in when the trash has never been picked up, and is expected to pick up every single piece of trash that has ever been thrown down (read years and years worth of trash) and then is liable if a little trash is left in the corner because the restaurant burned down. And, he's supposed to clean the inside of the kitchen using a pole that he pokes through a small opening in the kitchen door. He can't reach every part of the kitchen through the whole in the door. Because who ever designed the kitchen, built the kitchen, approved the kitchen's design never took into consideration that a guy would have to pick up all of the trash someday? That is have an opening large enough to allow him to remove the trash. But yet we hold him liable for everything when something goes wrong.

I look at myself as more of a guy who removes the grease. Not rocket scientist, just your average greasy guy.

Framing the argument as the hood cleaners are responsbile for preventing the fire in the first place is stretching the argument at best, but does assure that there are a line of lawyers just waiting to hire "our" expert to testify against us in a heartbeat.

The fire prevention industry and the hood cleaning industry split back in the 60's and 70's for a reason. Their job is to prevent a fire from consuming the entire restaurant. Our job is to remove the grease. Some do both, so I would say that they are preventing fires, whereas others don't.

This is an absurd example to illustrate how far the argument has been taken to earn money at the expense of hood cleaners. That's the bottom line.
 
I would say that the Ansul guys are more into fire prevention than us. If a system is installed correctly, it can really nip a fire in the bud. On the other hand, exhaust cleaners can clean "all accessible areas" and still leave enough grease in a system to burn down a restaurant. Becoming certified puts you at even more of a liability because now you are admitting to knowing all of the descrepencies whether it has anything to do with your job or not.
 
Am I in the fire prevention business? NO.
I am in the business of cleaning an establishment and making it a healthier and safer work place for all involved.

Once you say your in the fire prevention business or worse, put it in print on your cards or other media you open yourself up to litigation in the event of a fire concerning the exhaust system.
Its the old CYA. (thats cover yer azz for you novices)

There are to many other variables involed to call myself a fire prevention specialist.

Here is a quote I took from aph111 "I call it fire minimization."
That says it all, we can minimize the possibles but cannot guarantee anything.
:eek:
 
We are all in the fire prevention business just by doing what we are doing. Admit it or not if there is a fire and you have done service at that location you will be served.
 
The grease exhaust system is designed specifically to burn and handle a fire. Containing the fire and controlling it till it burns out is the entire purpose of it's existence.

Just because there is a fire, doesn't mean that the hood cleaner did or didn't do a good job.

The grease exhaust system was designed, installed, and inspected prior to it ever getting used.

If there is a fire, it is up to them (people who designed, installed and inspected) to prevent the fire by building it in such a fashion that it can contain and control the fire.

Blaming the hood cleaner is a convienent excuse that has been propagated at the expense of hood cleaners and to increase the value on one's services being offered to the prosecuter.

That's the bottom line.

Scare potential people out of the industry by giving the illusion of hood cleaners being sued left and right because they were the last to clean a hood 2 years ago and the "owner" didn't hire anybody else.

Allowing and encouraging lawyers to go on a fishing trip is counterintuitive to this industry as a whole.
 
This is a tough arguement for sure. I think you help prevent. Matts correct grease in the ducts didnt start the fire a person burning something does.

Interesting, I suppose the fuel thing could reduce damage. so poorly cleaned ducts could be liable for more damage. (but not responsible for starting)

this is a very educational point. I suppose knowing the liabilitys are important. Then again what grants saying about being served is true. Insurance companys and lawers try to sort how much damage is on you and whats on the guys who started it.

You guys get me thinking, I now understand why Phils making so much $$$$$$$$$
 
Don't forget the triangle. The three things needed to cause a fire are 1. oxygen 2. fuel 3. spark. As a Kitchen Grease Exhaust Cleaner the only thing that you can take from that triangle is the fuel. Therefore if you accept money to perform this service and don't do it properly you are held partially responsible. In every court case that I have studied relating to this type of situation more than one party has been found responsible. The theory seems to be "Sue as many people as possible" this way you are more likely to collect from someone. Remember that ignorance of the laws is no excuse. Even if you aren't certified you can be sued in case of a fire. It's all a part of the legal game.

Just My 2 Cents
 
Since the lawyers are going after everyone.someone stated fuel is needed in the fire triangle.They need to go after whoever built the wood(fuel) structure,
gas man for setting up propane(fuel) tanks at that establishment,food delivery company,for dropping off oil(fuel) for cooking with and filling the fryers-- where we goinna stop???After we clean the system,one good day of cooking will put grease in the system.I haven't heard of a filter catching 100
percent of the grease yet.If we are gonna be responsible I guess we have to set up daily exhaust cleanings.Man were gonna be in the money now..
 
what if

A high volume restaurant that was cleaned to bare metal, (with picture documentation) a week before it's next scheduled service a can of non stick spray is dropped on the grill puncturing a hole in the can, the spray coming out of the can ignites, shooting flames into the hood system, which in turn ignites the three month build-up of grease in the system, (remember high volume) the fire gets to the roof where the hot flaming grease ignites the roof and the whole building burns down.

Does the cleaner have any liability here?

What about the same scenario but no picture documentation?

Or the same scenario but with a portion of the duct inaccessible? (with documentation of the inaccessibility issue)
 
There was one that happened like that here in LA. The motor on the fan shorted out and started the fire. The entire restaurant burned down.

Insurance company or not, we all know when it is our responsibility. I have had fires in the past and I have always made it completely clear that I will be fully responsible for anything that was caused by my companies neglect. This usually gets the insurance company off my back once they are clear on what I will take accountability for. If we would all just be stand up guys instead of trying to duck away and cover up our mistakes, it might make a difference in the way we are viewed by the insurance companies and fire departments.
 
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Matt,
If the motor shorted out and started the fire it should not be blamed on the exhaust cleaner, but it will be blamed on the exhaust cleaner. And if it can be proven that the motor was the cause the guy that installed it and probably the motor manufacturer also will be blamed. Its called subrogation and it is what insurance companies do, blame everyone no matter how remotely involved, that way they can find someone to pay the loss. It’s a fact of our litigious society. As for a new combustible roof… new roofs are not combustible but if that is even remotely possible, the roofer and roof manufacturer will also be named in the lawsuit. The grease that is on the roof that has been neglected for years will burn when exposed to extremely high temperatures but it will not catch fire and burn by itself or from a spark.
If you think that someone talking to a seasoned fire investigator will be able to sway the investigators opinion on the origin of a fire, or the series of events leading up to a fire, you live in a different world. And trying to justify a different cause than what the evidence shows would send up red flags and removes any credibility that you may have had with an investigator.
As for an arson investigator (its not an “arson inspector”) on the payroll, you have a strange way of trying to say something, You as well as most on this BBS know that I am certified by the state as an arson investigator (1a), This as well as many of my other certifications were all a part of my Fire Science major in college. I don’t use most of those skills in my day-to-day business but I can carry on an educated conversation regarding fire and life safety issues, fire prevention, cause and origin and suppression. All learned (with the exception of becoming a Certified Fire Protection Specialist) prior to getting in the flue cleaning business.
 
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Are chimney sweeps in the fire prevention business?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I tell new customers that having the exhaust system cleaned is part of a good fire prevention program. It removes that leg of the fire triangle, (see Larry Hinckley's comments) that we can control, the fuel. Why else bother to have the damn things cleaned on a regular basis.
 
You and Rusty are right, first and foremost is that the system is designed to "capture and contain" a fire event. Grease fires happen, they will not go away. A properly maintained system (ie. cleaned to bare metal at frequent intervals....) will limit the damage should a fire occur. If a system is not built to the code and fire escapes or overruns the system, the fire will find areas like attic crawl spaces etc and propogate the situation into a probable complete loss. The designer (engineer / architect), the builder and the inspector are responsible for ensuring the system meets code at the time it is built.
 
and yes chimney sweeps are in the fire prevention business. Why else would you clean a chimney? fire prevention.
 
Reduce the risk!
 
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