Calgary hood cleaning requirements

David Saulque

Senior Moderator
The infighting within the cleaners and the certifying groups are obvious. The AHJ issues are for the most part are more convoluted than the cleaner groups. The AHJ’s are in a constant fight over jurisdictional, local codes, state codes, national rules, State Fire, Local Fire and so on.

This issue will never be solved until the AHJ’s are burdened with liability and faced with results of their enforcement (or lack of).

The cleaners and the organizations for the most part are the hitching post for discussion and comradeship. They seek members and reconition within the trade and to point out issues that are obvious, but seem to be overlooked by over layered AHJ’s.
 

mtngoat

Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc
Last week I attended the NFPA 96 Committee Meeting in Baltimore. Great function. PWNA submitted several proposals that were approved.

I thought I would also mention it here, considering there has been so much discussion. NFPA 96 has recognized PAC, PWNA and IKECA within its pages.

We should all see the results this next year in 2007 Edition.




Doc. That sounds like the NFPA is recognizeing the leaders in the field of education.

Was there any mention of those with actuall in the field experience or have we gotten left out? Is there a push on to aleviate this business of free thinkers/independents?

Someone care to tell us what we can plan on seeing in the 2007 edition?
I certinley would like to know where we are headed.
 
The whole AHJ issue can be confusing. From NFPA 96-2004 Chapter 3 Definitions "3.2.2* Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ).An organization, office, or individual responsible for enforcing the requirement of a code, or standard, or for approving equipment, material, and installation or a procedure." You will see this definition in all of the NFPA model codes as upgrades are done.

The Annex gives more clarity by noting "In many circumstanes, the property owner or his or her designated agent assumes the role of the authority having jursdiction" Read that last sentance again, the "designated agent assumes the role of AHJ." The designated agent can be considered the person who cleans the exhaust system and services the fire suppression system. After all, who knows more about the exhaust system than us? This is assuming we are properly trained and acually clean the whole exhaust system. Stan and his fellow inspectors are also AHJ,s but realistically Stan cannot be expected to see what we see while we are doing our jobs. Stan shows up the day after we clean the exhaust system. We saw the water leaks at the hood/duct junction, we saw the cleaning interval was inadaquate, we saw the entire duct was not accessable, but did not make note of that on the invoice, nor did we make a written service report that was given to Stan, the owner/operator and the insurance company. Stan does not see the leaks because we wiped up the water. When the place catches fire, who is responsible? If the owner is notified and the enforcement agency is notified, we have covered our selves. The liability is then on the owners, and the enforcement agencies. Will we be called into court, of course but we can produce our service reports and let Stan and the owner/operator and the insurance agency deal with the consequences.

In Oregon, there is movement to hold the contractor accountable. It took the death of 3 firefighters in Coos Bay to accomplish this. Now, some of the building inspectors are doing a much better job of inspecting new installations. Some of the fire inspectors are also taking their responsiblities more seriously. Unfortunatly, all too many of the inspectors and contractors still do a hack job. http://rfallenbrother.com/about.html

I have read some people posting derogatory remarks about Phil Ackland being an expert witness against exhaust cleaners. I am sure he has also been an expert witness for exhaust cleaners who have done what they are supposed to do and have documented deficiencies. http://www.philackland.com/expert_testomony.htm Don't forget Phil Ackland also sells a manual which has a report form for deficiencies. Cost $120.00.

David is completly right about the AHJs fighting their turf wars. One building official told me his objection to the new NFPA 5000 building code was he did not want to learn a new code. NFPA charges a fee to join, then you have the chance to propose and to vote on new proposals. The fee is $135.00 per year. Phil and Doc are members of NFPA who sit on the 96 committee. They can help w/any changes or additions you feel are needed, including the actual proposals. They attended the last meeting and represented those of who paid our money. Ironically, they also represent those who have not joined.
http://www.nfpa.org/catalog/category.asp?category_name=Membership&src=catalog

The International Building Code organization is open only to building officials. In other words, those who sell, install, service or repair exhaust duct systems are not allowed to join. We can offer input, but you have to go through someone in there organization with your suggestion. At a recent ORFED meeting, a State of Oregon Fire Marshall representive did say if we had any changes we could send them to the State FM and they would send them to the ICC. A local building official has told me the same, if I would write up any changes, he would send them to the ICC for me. ICC does reference NFPA 12, 13, 16, 17 17A, but not 96. They do not include the year of the NFPA Standard. Compare NFPA 96 and Sections 506, 507, 508 and 509 of the ICC code, you will see major differences in the two codes As a result, their codes do not go into much detail about our industry, leaving a large gap in the safety of the resturant. The new ICC code, dated 2006 is due in March. The ICC has started the process for 2009 Codes.

So let's see, NFPA membership $135.00, Phil Book $118.95 = $253.95 to increase your professionalism and knowledge. That is the profit from what, one job? And you did not even have to travel out of town!

Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc
NFPA Member since November 1991 # 123425
 

dodsonish

Grease Police President
Doc said:
I would have thought my post would have received more scrutiny. PWNA did submit several proposals while attending the committee meeting yet NFPA 96 did not acknowledge any organization in its pages.


So the statement about the organizations being listed was a "fib"? Just to get a rise out of those who oppose the blackballing of those organizations that are continuously overlooked in this industry.

I was actually waiting to hear how the groups were recognized. Then I was going to scrutinize if necessary. Since there was "really" nothing listed in the pages then there is nothing to scrutinize.

I think we have plenty of issues to discuss here without having to "imagine" what it would be like if something happened that we would oppose.

I do however hope you humored yourself, it's good to have a sense of humor.
 
Tammy @ Phil Ackland

I have Phil's First Editon loose leaf book dated 1991 and Phil's supplement dated 1997. If I order Phil's Fire Investigation Manual and Phil's Inspector's Manual, do I get a discount for all the free advertising this thread has generated? I counted at least 193 mentions of Phil and Phil's classes and Phil's books and Phil's expert testimony. Make that 202 free adds. Each mention Phil (203)should be worth at least a dollar discount.

Did I mention how much I admire Phil (204)?

Rusty, how much is one of those magnetic scrapers, and will give me the same deal as Tammy is giving me?
 

Tammy Tuhkala

New member
Douglas

Douglas Hicks said:
Tammy @ Phil Ackland

I have Phil's First Editon loose leaf book dated 1991 and Phil's supplement dated 1997. If I order Phil's Fire Investigation Manual and Phil's Inspector's Manual, do I get a discount for all the free advertising this thread has generated? I counted at least 193 mentions of Phil and Phil's classes and Phil's books and Phil's expert testimony. Make that 202 free adds. Each mention Phil (203)should be worth at least a dollar discount.

Well for all that effort I think I can give you a discount of at least 20% on those two books! And I can even throw in an autographed photo of Phil - for free!

Tammy
 
That sounds like a deal, expecially w/a picture of Phil! 200 + mentions of Phil = a 20 % discount. Everybody, lets see if we can get Phil mentioned another 100 time so I can get a 30 % discount.
 
Thanks Phil, very informative reading. But, I did not get an autographed photo.

Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc
 

cummings_1974

New member
You and I both know that there cleaners who claim to be
"Certified and clean only the hoods I have pictures to prove it. This is the biggest thorn in the side for both your industry and the AHJ. You state they(cleaners) must demonstrate their ability to clean a grease exhaust system. What a noval idea ! Now you have certified cleaners who can show their ability.

There are also certified companys (big companys) who clean only hoods, an I have pictures to prove it.
 
Top