Where should the responsibility fall?

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Przrat

New member
Inaccessible duct is a hot issue since the fire in Boston. I spoke at a meeting where many fire inspectors were in attendance. Some of the issues which I firmly believe are that we, hood cleaners are held accountable for are poor, not up to code construction of hoods. Also we are held accountable for old hoods, hoods which fire inspectors have chosen to allowed to be "Grandfathered". Not code you say.
You all would be absolutely shocked at what the fire inspectors do not know. Especially the NFPA 96. We assume because we know the codes then the Fire Inspectors know them. NOT, NOT, NOT. NOPE.
They act like they know then rush back to the station and try to find out the truth. So my point is by installing access panels, fans hinges, and doing sheet metal repair we are sticking our necks out way too far. Especially after the duct fire in Boston. Doors should be there before we clean, the fans should be hinged, there should be a grease pan on the fan and... the duct should not have dips that create collection areas for grease. My liability insurance does not cover sheet metal work and I would bet neither does yours. But by doing the work after the fact you are accepting responsibility and LIABILITY. The business owner is responsible for maintenance of his system. We are only a part of that maintenance, Cleaning.
 
If your insurance does not cover sheet metal work, then refer the work to another company. Then you are only responsible for the cleaning, and they are responsible for the system modifications. If it works the same for you as it has for me, you could end up with referrals from that company when they do system installs.
 
BUNN said:
If your insurance does not cover sheet metal work, then refer the work to another company. Then you are only responsible for the cleaning, and they are responsible for the system modifications. If it works the same for you as it has for me, you could end up with referrals from that company when they do system installs.
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That's what I do with complicated systems. The easy panel installs are done in house though. I try not to let having an old outdated system be an excuse for not doing a complete job. All the advice is offered and direction is given to a customer with an outdated fire hazzard, it is up to them to have the system updated and made fire safe. This is all documented and filed for reference if a loss would happen. You can be dragged into a lawsuit for even quoting a fire hazzard.

We also have many tools available now that allows access to "inaccessible" areas. Duct spinners, jet nozzles, specialized scrapers, and chemical downstreaming allow us to clean many areas that would need an access panel for inspection, but not necessarily access for cleaning.

This job comes with the liability attached, the key is to limit your liability through documantation and good business practice. Every minute of every day in KEC there is an opportunity for someone to sue you and your company. If your not willing to accept that then you should be selling something else.
 
I was thinking more along the lines of horizontals and extremely long verticals......but soft grease does fly when you throw a spinner at it.
 
So my question to you Ed is when you come across a system that has a lack of those things you mention...............what do YOU do?
 
I usually wont clean the system. The owner can have the access panels installed. Sometimes I pass it on to another hood cleaner who says he installs access panels. Fan hinges are not a job dumper only access panels. They are not in my scope of work. I do report to the fire marshall also.
Unfortunately some systems should be replaced, totally. Again, not my job, not my business. CYA.
Have you ever had a job that you went way out of your way to make it accessible, cleaned years of crap, busted your ass, and have the customer never call you back until its a real mess again? Or after busting your ass installing access panels in unbelievable areas in a ceiling or other crappy areas. Removing buckets of grease working just a little extra for these people and have them call you back because you didnt clean the back wall. Or because there is a drip or some fingerprints somewhere? Or they call you back because the fan is making noise probably because the grease accumulation was acting like a baffle. Now that its clean, no more baffle, and congratulations, you get to pay to fix it. Improperly installed ductwork is the owners property. I can only clean what I can get to. If access panels are installed, I can clean more. If not, so be it. NOT MY JOB. NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY. Look at it this way. If a leaky duct drips on someones computer, who will be held responsible? The guy that put in the duct or the guy that put in the water? L I A B I L I T Y Nobody is going to let you off the hook, so dont act like a sucker.
 
Actually no. I charge accordingly. If a duct leaks water on someones computer I didnt look closely enough before I started, try reusing some of that plastic of yours.

Funny, my boys and I had a conversation just last night about "not my job, not my responsibility". I told them never to take that attitude, you wont make it far in life. Always go the extra mile, always make it a little better always try to do more, to do better.


This would be Eds handiwork if he painted stripes on roads.
not-MY-job.jpg
 
My feeling is try to do more and give more and you get your just rewards as your picture indicates.
Exactly how can you tell if a duct is going to leak before you put water in it. There isnt usually a gaping hole, it is usually a flaw in the weld which is covered by grease. When you apply degreaser you get the leaks. So please tell me how you can tell if a duct is going to leak?

I should not even bandy words with you. Your only reason for your posting is to make what you do right and everyone else wrong. Havent you ever learned that there is more than one right answer. Probably not.
I think you will be wearing stripes before long anyway.
 
Good Pics. Good Advice. There is so much low ball competition here that pricing that into a job would scare most of the clients away. I probably wouldnt bid it. I would send it to someone like you. When I refer a job to a superior hood cleaner it benefits me in the long run. The hood cleaner is happy the restaurant is happy and I get a good rep and get some jobs that are more my size.
 
I kind of agree with Ed in this. If something is over my head or beyond my expertise, then I would refer it to another company that COULD handle it. (cough cough :)) However, I also agree with Rog. I go beyond the call of duty just about every night and have some very loyal customers because of it. Even ones I try to dump call me back to schedule cleanings.

I did a job about 2 weeks ago that had some tiny holes in the bottom of the duct that I couldn't see until I cleaned it. Water was on top of the hood now in an attic that was darn near "unaccessible", but because I knew that it was up there and could potentially ruin something if left there, I somehow got up there with my wet-vac and sucked it all up. I didn't have to and they would have probably never noticed, but I noticed and it was unacceptable to me. I think that is how we should all think. I'm not looking for an atta-boy, I'm just trying to give an example of going above and beyond. Doing that cost me at least another hour of my time, but hopefully I have that customer for life because they did have to explain to them that they need to get the holes fixed and what happened.
 
It is amazing how many good people are still left out there. I am scarred, jaded, suspicious and tired of being unapperciated. I did nt get this way fer nuttin but as long as you keep up the good work ( cough cough ) I imagine your are creating better customers and people in general. Like paying it forward?
 
If ducts run over an area that could be damaged by leaks, cover the area.
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Nope, your wrong Matt, just tell em it aint your problem. Let em know its not your job to make sure you dont make a mess.
 
Przrat said:
Improperly installed ductwork is the owners property. I can only clean what I can get to. If access panels are installed, I can clean more. If not, so be it. NOT MY JOB. NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY. Look at it this way. If a leaky duct drips on someones computer, who will be held responsible? The guy that put in the duct or the guy that put in the water? L I A B I L I T Y Nobody is going to let you off the hook, so dont act like a sucker.
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I go into any new accoutn that has horizontals expecting to have a leak at every seem and weld. I just bought $80 worth of greasy "to go" containers from a restaurant in Kentucky. This place has about 40' of leaky ductwork, all of which was accounted for.....then a new leak sprouted, all over th top of a roll away refrigerator with two shelves of really expensive foil go boxes. This will be the last time I pay for lost product due to leaky ductwork at this location. I have informed customer and disclaimed the condition of the stacks, the only option for not making a mess is to not clean the ductwork, which is not an option...especially since it is a wood fired broiler hood. This is another example of the issues that come with the territory. My responsibility is to inform the customer of any hazzardous and unsafe conditions in their systems, it is their responsibility to get them fixed or improved. If something is ruined or damaged as a direct result of a cleaning then I hold my people and myself responsible for the damages and loss.
 
HotShot_Anthony said:
I feel like slapping them with a wet rubber glove sometimes, but oh well, just gotta keep on keeping on.
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There is nothing more disgusting than a sweaty rubber glove. I almost fired a guy for leaving his nasty gloves in the side box of my truck, on top of the full box of clean gloves none the less. :mad:
 
HotShot_Anthony said:
I kind of agree with Ed in this. If something is over my head or beyond my expertise, then I would refer it to another company that COULD handle it. (cough cough :)) However, I also agree with Rog. I go beyond the call of duty just about every night and have some very loyal customers because of it. Even ones I try to dump call me back to schedule cleanings.

I did a job about 2 weeks ago that had some tiny holes in the bottom of the duct that I couldn't see until I cleaned it. Water was on top of the hood now in an attic that was darn near "unaccessible", but because I knew that it was up there and could potentially ruin something if left there, I somehow got up there with my wet-vac and sucked it all up. I didn't have to and they would have probably never noticed, but I noticed and it was unacceptable to me. I think that is how we should all think. I'm not looking for an atta-boy, I'm just trying to give an example of going above and beyond. Doing that cost me at least another hour of my time, but hopefully I have that customer for life because they did have to explain to them that they need to get the holes fixed and what happened.
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atta-boy



:p
 
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