Seriously whats the best products
What are the Best Stains?
- Thread starter Ron Musgraves
- Start date
Pete Marentay
Distinguished Professors
There will all kinds of opinions when you ask a wide open question like this. The simple answer is whatever works best for the individual contractor. When I teach my Wood class, this is a topic we hit hard - not with brand names but with characteristics.
Most people who are serious about wood consider oil sealers to be "the best". Those professionals will differ over the differences between paraffinic oil, linseed oil, and even alkyds (or some combination of those). This discussion can get really technical (like when you start using terms like long oils and short oils) but for the most part it breaks down along the lines of film-forming (coating) or non-film-forming.
For the first application of a sealer on a new deck, almost any choice will work for the contractor. This is a short-sighted view, however. For those contractors who intend to be in the business for a career, what is applied on the first round must be dealt with again for the second round in 2 or 3 years. You can put anything on, but can you get it off later on? The answer for most oils is "yes" while the answers for most water-borne sealers is "maybe, maybe not".
Sealers that form a film on the surface (whether an oil or a water-borne product) ought be removed before any new finish can be applied. Some manufacturers have tried to blur the lines in the last several years, claiming that their film-former is different and does not have to be removed, but that is a marketing statement geared towards selling more sealer. It defies logical thought.
There will be champions for every brand out there who may jump in to defend their favorite film-former, but the truth is that a film-former should be stripped off before a re-application is put on. Sealers are designed to bond to wood, and not necessarily designed to bond to a previous coat of sealer. Logic tells you that you have to get down to wood for the re-application to properly bond.
Beyond that, film-formers should be stripped because wood needs to breathe. Wood has to be able to let go of humidity that gets absorbed. Even film-forming sealers are capable of letting the wood breathe through one (or maybe two layers). Eventually, however, the breath-ability of the sealer is reduced with each application. The result is moisture trapped inside the wood beneath the coating - the very thing a sealer is supposed to prevent.
This problem is many times more serious when you look at non-oil sealers (such as the acrylics that the home improvement stores are so fond of pushing at DIYers). One manufacturer faced a class-action because the sealer wouldn't let the wood breathe and the wood ended up rotting under the sealer. It looked fine, until you stepped on a board and it broke.
Back to "the best": whatever sealer lets you get the job done in an efficient way within economic limits (like material cost, ease of access, and labor cost) and is within the talent range of the applier that also meets the satisfaction of the customer is the best one for you to use. We all have our favorite brands (and some of us have an economic stake in one brand over another) but I would stand behind the definition here - whatever works for the individual.
I used Ready Seal, and that is what I sell in my store. I loved for business reasons; because I could teach employees how to apply it easily and quickly. No "painting skills" are required. It allowed me to hire guys for a few months of "season" and then let them go. If those guys tried to become my competitors next year, they failed because they bought the wrong sealer at a big box store. It costs less than most premium products. It goes on quickly and was about 99% mistake-proof. The sealer I used didn't form a film, so my second visit to a customers deck was more profitable than I ever thought possible. In the end, it made the most economic sense to me.
Another contractor will like the one he or she uses because the color impresses the customer. Someone else will like a sealer because it has an easily-marketable name. In the end, it always comes down to what works for you.
Most people who are serious about wood consider oil sealers to be "the best". Those professionals will differ over the differences between paraffinic oil, linseed oil, and even alkyds (or some combination of those). This discussion can get really technical (like when you start using terms like long oils and short oils) but for the most part it breaks down along the lines of film-forming (coating) or non-film-forming.
For the first application of a sealer on a new deck, almost any choice will work for the contractor. This is a short-sighted view, however. For those contractors who intend to be in the business for a career, what is applied on the first round must be dealt with again for the second round in 2 or 3 years. You can put anything on, but can you get it off later on? The answer for most oils is "yes" while the answers for most water-borne sealers is "maybe, maybe not".
Sealers that form a film on the surface (whether an oil or a water-borne product) ought be removed before any new finish can be applied. Some manufacturers have tried to blur the lines in the last several years, claiming that their film-former is different and does not have to be removed, but that is a marketing statement geared towards selling more sealer. It defies logical thought.
There will be champions for every brand out there who may jump in to defend their favorite film-former, but the truth is that a film-former should be stripped off before a re-application is put on. Sealers are designed to bond to wood, and not necessarily designed to bond to a previous coat of sealer. Logic tells you that you have to get down to wood for the re-application to properly bond.
Beyond that, film-formers should be stripped because wood needs to breathe. Wood has to be able to let go of humidity that gets absorbed. Even film-forming sealers are capable of letting the wood breathe through one (or maybe two layers). Eventually, however, the breath-ability of the sealer is reduced with each application. The result is moisture trapped inside the wood beneath the coating - the very thing a sealer is supposed to prevent.
This problem is many times more serious when you look at non-oil sealers (such as the acrylics that the home improvement stores are so fond of pushing at DIYers). One manufacturer faced a class-action because the sealer wouldn't let the wood breathe and the wood ended up rotting under the sealer. It looked fine, until you stepped on a board and it broke.
Back to "the best": whatever sealer lets you get the job done in an efficient way within economic limits (like material cost, ease of access, and labor cost) and is within the talent range of the applier that also meets the satisfaction of the customer is the best one for you to use. We all have our favorite brands (and some of us have an economic stake in one brand over another) but I would stand behind the definition here - whatever works for the individual.
I used Ready Seal, and that is what I sell in my store. I loved for business reasons; because I could teach employees how to apply it easily and quickly. No "painting skills" are required. It allowed me to hire guys for a few months of "season" and then let them go. If those guys tried to become my competitors next year, they failed because they bought the wrong sealer at a big box store. It costs less than most premium products. It goes on quickly and was about 99% mistake-proof. The sealer I used didn't form a film, so my second visit to a customers deck was more profitable than I ever thought possible. In the end, it made the most economic sense to me.
Another contractor will like the one he or she uses because the color impresses the customer. Someone else will like a sealer because it has an easily-marketable name. In the end, it always comes down to what works for you.
Anyone Else or is ready Seal simply the Best?
apsurfacesolutions
New member
Anderson Clark
Connor
New member
Shaun Gross
New member
Read Seal is my choice. I have occasionally used the box store solid color acrylics, only because I now refuse to try and strip the old. I did some strip jobs when I first started because I needed to fill the schedule and keep the money coming in, but now I will turn it down in a second. No one will want to pay me what I normally get per hour to strip their entire deck!
I love everything about Ready Seal. Can someone comment as to how AC Armstond Clark applies? Is it goof proof? Can it be applied in direct sunlight and have no worries about runs, brush marks etc?
I love everything about Ready Seal. Can someone comment as to how AC Armstond Clark applies? Is it goof proof? Can it be applied in direct sunlight and have no worries about runs, brush marks etc?
bigchaz
Moderator
Pete is an expert of experts and what he said is spot on. A lot of contractors have great success with Ready Seal and I've seen some great work so if it works for you keep using it, don't change if you got a good thing going.
I imagine Pete would agree with this too, just as he did for his business, at the end of the day the best stain is going to be the one that works best for your particular business model. Granted some stains absolutely suck (ahem Behr....) but if you are a contractor providing quality work and standing behind your work then use the stain that is best for you not what I say or someone else tells you is the best.
My customers in particular prefer a product that has good longevity, holds good color, won't track or stay oil, and of course is easy to maintain. And I as a contractor prefer a stain that protects the wood, allows the boards to breathe, won't create a film, is easy to apply, and is manufactured to consistent standards.
And for those reasons among others we happen use Armstrong Clark almost exclusively (other than exotic hardwoods). I'm not affiliated with Armstrong in any way other than a great friendship with Jake Clark, but regardless of that just from my own experiences I encourage everyone to try Armstrong Clark stain. The semi transparent line in the Armstrong Clark is very popular with our customers as it provides a stronger pigment than other transparent oil stains so we find that it gives a more even look but still highlights the color of the wood grain, and shows the wood.
In terms of application we just stained 4 decks this week with heat indexes above 100 (temperatures were around 96 degrees). I will admit that you definitely go through more product on a hot day which I imagine in the case with most stains as solvent evaporates more quickly but there are no issues with flashing or anything like that with Armstrong Clark being applied in the dead heat of day in summer.
I won't say that the stain is Goof Proof (not sure if thats a trademarked motto for RS) but unless you truly do have monkeys working for you it's very very difficult to mess up Armstrong or get it to lap or have other problems you hear about as downsides to a linseed product. My guys have dropped buckets off ladders onto the deck, stained furniture on top of unstained wood, left wet brushes resting on a board for extended periods of time, stepped in stain and walked across unstained areas and despite all that, we just brush it out and stain the entire floor when ready and never have any problems with anything showing. Armstrong doesn't get shiners, soaks in very well, doesn't require masking under rails, etc. And of course the results are great.
Take a look at my photos on www.facebook.com/DeckStaining and youll see the hundreds of Armstrong decks we've done with the product.
But anyway not to preach too much, at the end of the day my opinion is as long as you are doing proper prep, low pressure washing and using an oil based stain you are already doing things 90% better than anyone else out there and in my book thats pretty good
I imagine Pete would agree with this too, just as he did for his business, at the end of the day the best stain is going to be the one that works best for your particular business model. Granted some stains absolutely suck (ahem Behr....) but if you are a contractor providing quality work and standing behind your work then use the stain that is best for you not what I say or someone else tells you is the best.
My customers in particular prefer a product that has good longevity, holds good color, won't track or stay oil, and of course is easy to maintain. And I as a contractor prefer a stain that protects the wood, allows the boards to breathe, won't create a film, is easy to apply, and is manufactured to consistent standards.
And for those reasons among others we happen use Armstrong Clark almost exclusively (other than exotic hardwoods). I'm not affiliated with Armstrong in any way other than a great friendship with Jake Clark, but regardless of that just from my own experiences I encourage everyone to try Armstrong Clark stain. The semi transparent line in the Armstrong Clark is very popular with our customers as it provides a stronger pigment than other transparent oil stains so we find that it gives a more even look but still highlights the color of the wood grain, and shows the wood.
In terms of application we just stained 4 decks this week with heat indexes above 100 (temperatures were around 96 degrees). I will admit that you definitely go through more product on a hot day which I imagine in the case with most stains as solvent evaporates more quickly but there are no issues with flashing or anything like that with Armstrong Clark being applied in the dead heat of day in summer.
I won't say that the stain is Goof Proof (not sure if thats a trademarked motto for RS) but unless you truly do have monkeys working for you it's very very difficult to mess up Armstrong or get it to lap or have other problems you hear about as downsides to a linseed product. My guys have dropped buckets off ladders onto the deck, stained furniture on top of unstained wood, left wet brushes resting on a board for extended periods of time, stepped in stain and walked across unstained areas and despite all that, we just brush it out and stain the entire floor when ready and never have any problems with anything showing. Armstrong doesn't get shiners, soaks in very well, doesn't require masking under rails, etc. And of course the results are great.
Take a look at my photos on www.facebook.com/DeckStaining and youll see the hundreds of Armstrong decks we've done with the product.
But anyway not to preach too much, at the end of the day my opinion is as long as you are doing proper prep, low pressure washing and using an oil based stain you are already doing things 90% better than anyone else out there and in my book thats pretty good
Lightning Gene
Active member
ready seal
Carolina Prowash
Exterior Surface Pros
TWP, WoodTux and FloodCWF-UV5 Pro. Neither AC or RS has ever been a satisfactory product for our projects but we have seen other contractors' projects that look very good.
Woodtux is around? How's he doing?
Art Oliveri
Roundtable Host 2009
I'm not good at deck stain. I built a new cedar deck last year. I put Sikens semi transparent SRD stain on it. It all peeled off the winter. I just got done stripping and sanding it all off. I am thinking of putting Benjamin Moore Arborcoat on. Have any of you guys used this stuff. Is it any good or should I try somthing else. I don't want to do this again. Any help would be welcome. Thanks Guys
Carolina Prowash
Exterior Surface Pros
Yes, Russell is still most definitely around.....and there is still no better product for hardwoods.
Art.......if you read the previous posts, you will see some really good companies suggesting some really good stains. If you'll notice, Sikkens wasn't one of them (for a reason) and whatever the other stuff is that you were asking about - don't see that there either.
With that said - "I don't ever want to do this again".... is not something you can say about your deck. You will be caring for it every year period. Stripping a b*tch stain - then don't use anything with water in it. Oils can be recoated several times before a strip has to happen - and even then, depending on the stain, a strip is not always necessary.
Art.......if you read the previous posts, you will see some really good companies suggesting some really good stains. If you'll notice, Sikkens wasn't one of them (for a reason) and whatever the other stuff is that you were asking about - don't see that there either.
With that said - "I don't ever want to do this again".... is not something you can say about your deck. You will be caring for it every year period. Stripping a b*tch stain - then don't use anything with water in it. Oils can be recoated several times before a strip has to happen - and even then, depending on the stain, a strip is not always necessary.
NJWashingGuy
New member
Personally, I would not ruin a perfectly good cedar deck with BM Arborcoat. You could have put Wolmanized Pine for a lot less if you were going to cover it up. Also, before you can apply acrylic products directly to wood, you need a coat of oil based primer for adhesion or it will be peeling off in less than a year. Cedar is a wood that needs regular maintenance. I would use Ready Seal in my opinion, and I have heard alot of good about Armstrong Clark, but never used the products myself.
Art Oliveri
Roundtable Host 2009
Thanks Roger
I think I will look into the FloodCWF-UV5 Pro Localy and if that don't work out I will get the Ready Seal. I just want to finish this project and be over with.
I think I will look into the FloodCWF-UV5 Pro Localy and if that don't work out I will get the Ready Seal. I just want to finish this project and be over with.
Diamond Jim
New member
Sealers come down to your understanding of wood care and the type of wood your dealing with. Sealers come down to your understanding of what they can and cant do and how to maintain them.The solid content of the product and the type of oil (drying oil% and non-drying oil%). What area of the country your from and can it hold up to the climate. Note- new cedar decks are a pain to deal with (i do lots of new and maintain many cedar decks). The first finish is the most important and do not over apply product. It takes two years to figure out if a sealer is worth using to meet my standards for future wood care. Washing and re-application. So I need to see it on a deck before a house.
Sikkins gets a bad rap because most times or should I say all the time because it has gone beyond maintenance and must be removed. I have seen beautiful very old sikkins jobs because they where maintained.
I just came from a multi million dollar property with sikkins on it. It was re-coated over moldy sikkins and what a future nightmare.
Sikkins gets a bad rap because most times or should I say all the time because it has gone beyond maintenance and must be removed. I have seen beautiful very old sikkins jobs because they where maintained.
I just came from a multi million dollar property with sikkins on it. It was re-coated over moldy sikkins and what a future nightmare.
Pete Marentay
Distinguished Professors
Yeah, Jim, what a nightmare that will be!!
I would like to throw a couple of more attributes into the conversation. One is that Ready Seal can be applied right up to the moment it rains. Most sealers tell you not to apply a sealer if you expect rain in the first 24 hours. Around my area, every single day has at least a 20% chance of rain. Another interesting point is that RS has no temperature limitations. Most sealers tell you not to apply a sealer if the temperature is going to drop below 54 degrees. Between these two qualities, we were able to get as many as 60 extra sealing days every year in our area, which can be a huge factor in any business. I got stopped by a pop-up thundershower half-way through a job once, and just went back to days later and finished the application. You couldn't tell where I stopped and started.
As for AC, I think that product shows excellent color. Very "deep" looking. Anything with that kind of look is pretty easy to sell to customers. One more thing: Jake Clark has put a lot of energy and money into supporting the industry, too. I know that I have been teaching and supporting for a long time, and for the last several years Jake is the only other person there when I look around the room. This is not about selling, my friends, it is about supporting y'all.
One common thread in all of these responses is staying away from products from a big box home improvement store. By using a specialty sealer you set yourself apart from the average joe who buys his junk based on price from a DIY store.
I would like to throw a couple of more attributes into the conversation. One is that Ready Seal can be applied right up to the moment it rains. Most sealers tell you not to apply a sealer if you expect rain in the first 24 hours. Around my area, every single day has at least a 20% chance of rain. Another interesting point is that RS has no temperature limitations. Most sealers tell you not to apply a sealer if the temperature is going to drop below 54 degrees. Between these two qualities, we were able to get as many as 60 extra sealing days every year in our area, which can be a huge factor in any business. I got stopped by a pop-up thundershower half-way through a job once, and just went back to days later and finished the application. You couldn't tell where I stopped and started.
As for AC, I think that product shows excellent color. Very "deep" looking. Anything with that kind of look is pretty easy to sell to customers. One more thing: Jake Clark has put a lot of energy and money into supporting the industry, too. I know that I have been teaching and supporting for a long time, and for the last several years Jake is the only other person there when I look around the room. This is not about selling, my friends, it is about supporting y'all.
One common thread in all of these responses is staying away from products from a big box home improvement store. By using a specialty sealer you set yourself apart from the average joe who buys his junk based on price from a DIY store.
Ohio pressure wash
New member
Armstrong Clark is the only stain I recommend to my customers....I'll put down any stain they buy but I will only provide a guarantee on AC. That said....I really haven't used many of the top shelf stains....just have had such good success with AC that I don't see any need to experiment.