Question on Phil Ackland Certification
- Thread starter Phil Ackland
- Start date
RustyACE
President CHDCA
Yeah I've got one of those murdering SUV's under my carport. 
I just love how they blame the SUV for all this destruction (yet large heavy cars/trucks have been around since cars were first invented).
I feel the same way towards them blaming the hood cleaner when it's the grease exhaust system that is to blame. Surely the guy that designed it, installed it, approved it had something to do with it?
As far as NFPA 96 certification, I've already checked and for a mere $100K they'll start a program. Along the lines of the other certification programs that they already offer for other things.
I was told to back off because if I pursue it, then people will be very upset at having their ball game taken over by the big leagues.
They like the minor leage ball park that they are playing in. They've created the park, the game, the rules and control who gets in the nose bleeder seats and who gets in the sky boxes. By handing the game over to the NFPA then they have the control and all that has been built will be confiscated.
David and I agree that true liability is tied to the AHJ who approved the system. Not the poor greaser who years later is trying to do his best with the mess that he was handed.
I just feel that a stronger ADVOCACY role should be played by the certification associations (like us) instead of the were going to help the prosecution sue out of business.
I did a search for technical experts for kitchen grease exhaust cleaning and several names popped up.
I just love how they blame the SUV for all this destruction (yet large heavy cars/trucks have been around since cars were first invented).
I feel the same way towards them blaming the hood cleaner when it's the grease exhaust system that is to blame. Surely the guy that designed it, installed it, approved it had something to do with it?
As far as NFPA 96 certification, I've already checked and for a mere $100K they'll start a program. Along the lines of the other certification programs that they already offer for other things.
I was told to back off because if I pursue it, then people will be very upset at having their ball game taken over by the big leagues.
They like the minor leage ball park that they are playing in. They've created the park, the game, the rules and control who gets in the nose bleeder seats and who gets in the sky boxes. By handing the game over to the NFPA then they have the control and all that has been built will be confiscated.
David and I agree that true liability is tied to the AHJ who approved the system. Not the poor greaser who years later is trying to do his best with the mess that he was handed.
I just feel that a stronger ADVOCACY role should be played by the certification associations (like us) instead of the were going to help the prosecution sue out of business.
I did a search for technical experts for kitchen grease exhaust cleaning and several names popped up.
RustyACE
President CHDCA
NFPA supports fire protection and the fire service, building, and electrical inspection professions through the following certification programs:
Certified Fire Protection Specialist (CFPS)*
Certified Fire Inspector I (CFI)*
Certified Fire Inspector II (CFI-II)*
Certified Fire Plan Examiner I (CFPE)*
Certified Building Inspector (CBI)
Certified Building Plans Examiner (CBPE)
Certified Electrical Inspector - Master (CEI-M)**
Certified Electrical Inspector - Residential (CEI-R)**
Why earn a certification?
The public at-large today is demanding evidence of competency from professionals in their practice specialties. Certification is an important credential that can help you to meet this need.
Gain professional recognition from your peers and others
Demonstrate your knowledge and competence
Document your commitment to your profession
Create your career path
* The U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) has approved the CFPS, CFI and CFPE Certification Programs for reimbursement of examination fees. Contact your local Veterans Affairs Office.
** The Certified Electrical Inspector Programs - Master and residential are jointly sponsored by the IAEI and NFPA.
Certified Fire Protection Specialist (CFPS)*
Certified Fire Inspector I (CFI)*
Certified Fire Inspector II (CFI-II)*
Certified Fire Plan Examiner I (CFPE)*
Certified Building Inspector (CBI)
Certified Building Plans Examiner (CBPE)
Certified Electrical Inspector - Master (CEI-M)**
Certified Electrical Inspector - Residential (CEI-R)**
Why earn a certification?
The public at-large today is demanding evidence of competency from professionals in their practice specialties. Certification is an important credential that can help you to meet this need.
Gain professional recognition from your peers and others
Demonstrate your knowledge and competence
Document your commitment to your profession
Create your career path
* The U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) has approved the CFPS, CFI and CFPE Certification Programs for reimbursement of examination fees. Contact your local Veterans Affairs Office.
** The Certified Electrical Inspector Programs - Master and residential are jointly sponsored by the IAEI and NFPA.
Russ Spence
Commercial Pressure Wash Expert
they should know everything they are selling so they can overcome any objections up front
JohnB
JohnB
I said same test because .... I would expect as much from a crew leader as I would myself .. as to the knowledge of fire equipment and hood cleaning.. But I would put a (while working with B&R ) clause in there somewhere... Remember when you teach everything you know to someone they will eventually become your competition..
mbryan
New member
Great old post. This is becoming a hot issue again it looks like. The Ackland program will be different then any certification program before, and company reps and techs will have different "certifications".
There are new certification companies coming out, it looks like every year there are a couple new ones so certification is all over the place, there is even a guy offering $25 online certification, when does it end? Who will finally say what the standard is for certification?
There are new certification companies coming out, it looks like every year there are a couple new ones so certification is all over the place, there is even a guy offering $25 online certification, when does it end? Who will finally say what the standard is for certification?
So different you have no idea, the advancement is going harder and stronger.
Finally for the first time certain end users will only use a few they have been sold on by large insurance companys.
it will not happen until 2009 late, the path is being made and they will have choices. the internet guy for 25 bucks wont be involved.
I understand what you mean, You have no worries. The company you deal with is on the list.
I just wonder why they have kept this quite.
my agent mentioned this to me last re-write. because i listed the interior work.
she is still looking into if i have to comply in order to work for certain companys they insure.
how do you like those apples.
she is still looking into if i have to comply in order to work for certain companys they insure.
how do you like those apples.
mbryan
New member
The new changes are great, but it still does not address the fact that certification of kitchen exhaust cleaners does not prove how proficient they are at their trade, it merely tests their knowledge of NFPA 96, OSHA regs and how to clean a restaurant hood system. This is not just me talking, Phil has said it himself that certification is no guarantee that a hood cleaner can do his job correctly.
I talked to one of the IKECA Ethics Committee members last week and I am paraphrasing but he said that kitchen exhaust cleaners that do shoddy work should be brought up on criminal charges. THAT would be change in the right direction and at least it would scare the honest guys in to doing it right. The criminals will always be criminals and try to get away with whatever they can, certified or not.
I talked to one of the IKECA Ethics Committee members last week and I am paraphrasing but he said that kitchen exhaust cleaners that do shoddy work should be brought up on criminal charges. THAT would be change in the right direction and at least it would scare the honest guys in to doing it right. The criminals will always be criminals and try to get away with whatever they can, certified or not.
Nice steps Matt
mbryan
New member
Steps are all we have. I know it will never happen in my lifetime, but with the right guys behind getting kitchen exhaust systems properly cleaned, I'm talking about in the real world, not just getting codes put in to NFPA 96, the industry can move from "the dubious distinction of being the least respected of any service a restaurant requires." to a trade that is as respected as the HVAC industry.
David Saulque
Senior Moderator
Respect comes from what you expect-if your head is up and know product, it comes down to the customer. With restaurants being the one business that fails greater percent of the time. If we are the pig at the party, well let’s enjoy the party-we will be around when most have failed. Granted, we are not heart surgeons, we just didn’t stay in school as long-the glass is half full.
Larry Hinckley
Hall of Fame Member
Who is Responsible?
As a third party observer I have watched and listened to people struggle for the answer to this dilemma for nearly 25 years. A building engineer in Louisville, KY in the early part of the1990s stated that the best source of information on this subject was to be found at www.dcs1.com. A fire marshal in Fort Meyers Beach, FL in 2008 stated that he didn’t have the time to do a thorough inspection because of the vast number of facilities that he had to cover so he just looked for a sticker saying that the system was inspected and cleaned by an IKECA certified company and held that company responsible if there was any problems. I have heard countless people from vent cleaning companies say that the systems were designed wrong. Restaurant owners say that the cost of doing business is so high that it is almost impossible to be competitive. Is this a throw back to the book “The One Minute Manager Meets the Monkey?” “Nobody Wants This Monkey” I have met some of the most intelligent men and women that I have ever known at IKECA and PWNA meetings. I have listened to them debate these issues. I have yet to hear a single solution to the problems that exist. There is more than one problem to be solved according to the interested parties, so it would follow that there is more than one solution.
Building Codes This is a political issue with an expensive solution.
Fire Codes This is an ongoing thing being addressed by many organizations.
Training & Certification This will be an ongoing process so long as there are people
who believe in education and accountability.
If you aren’t willing to become involved in politics then don’t complain.
If you aren’t willing to pay higher taxes then don’t complain.
If you have ever complained about low-ballers or the ineptitude of your competitors then don’t complain about training and certification.
Just My 2 cents.
As a third party observer I have watched and listened to people struggle for the answer to this dilemma for nearly 25 years. A building engineer in Louisville, KY in the early part of the1990s stated that the best source of information on this subject was to be found at www.dcs1.com. A fire marshal in Fort Meyers Beach, FL in 2008 stated that he didn’t have the time to do a thorough inspection because of the vast number of facilities that he had to cover so he just looked for a sticker saying that the system was inspected and cleaned by an IKECA certified company and held that company responsible if there was any problems. I have heard countless people from vent cleaning companies say that the systems were designed wrong. Restaurant owners say that the cost of doing business is so high that it is almost impossible to be competitive. Is this a throw back to the book “The One Minute Manager Meets the Monkey?” “Nobody Wants This Monkey” I have met some of the most intelligent men and women that I have ever known at IKECA and PWNA meetings. I have listened to them debate these issues. I have yet to hear a single solution to the problems that exist. There is more than one problem to be solved according to the interested parties, so it would follow that there is more than one solution.
Building Codes This is a political issue with an expensive solution.
Fire Codes This is an ongoing thing being addressed by many organizations.
Training & Certification This will be an ongoing process so long as there are people
who believe in education and accountability.
If you aren’t willing to become involved in politics then don’t complain.
If you aren’t willing to pay higher taxes then don’t complain.
If you have ever complained about low-ballers or the ineptitude of your competitors then don’t complain about training and certification.
Just My 2 cents.
Arguments for the Rep taking the same test
- Shared Responsibility: The Company Rep signs the paperwork, verifies the crew leaders, and is the company’s official contact. In effect, the Rep is responsible for ensuring the work is done right. Under the certification forms the Rep “accepts responsibility to administer any necessary components of the … Certification Process for this company”. Phil Ackland Exhaust Training+1
- If the Rep doesn’t understand the same technical content as the Crew Leader, there’s a risk of mis-communication, insufficient oversight, or errors in workflow.
- It promotes a unified standard of knowledge across the company: from ownership/management (the Rep) through field staff (Crew Leaders).
- Credibility & Trust: If insurance companies or fire inspectors look at the certification, knowing that the person representing the company has the same level of understanding bolsters credibility.
- Safety and Compliance: The job (cleaning commercial kitchen exhaust systems) involves significant safety risks (fire, code compliance, access panels, etc.). The Rep may not do the cleaning themselves, but they are accountable for the company’s compliance. Having the same test ensures they understand the risks and standards.
- Consistency with the Protocol: The FAQ of the training states: “Can a Company Owner or Representative get Crew Leader Certification? Yes. The Company Owner or Representative can go through the same process as the Crew Leaders, and will be granted Crew Leader Certification.” Phil Ackland Exhaust Training
- This suggests that Phil Ackland’s organization sees value in the Rep going through the same certification process.
Arguments against the Rep taking exactly the same test
- Different Roles, Different Focus: The Crew Leader is out in the field doing the cleaning, inspections, having to deal with the ducts, fans, grease buildup, NFPA 96 compliance and hands-on tasks. The Rep may be managing, scheduling, paperwork, insurance, quality control — a more managerial role. Thus their required knowledge might differ (less technical minutiae, more business oversight).
- Time/Cost Efficiency: If the test is heavily technical and for field work, making all Reps take it could impose additional cost/time burdens for people whose daily job may not require every detail of cleaning technique.
- Proportional Risk: The Rep might never go on job sites or perform cleaning. If their principal role is administrative oversight, then requiring them to master all technical aspects might be over-kill and detract from focusing on their actual responsibilities (company quality systems, client relations, scheduling, insurance).
- Opportunity for Tiered Certification: A modified test for Reps (focused on oversight, compliance, safety, documentation) might make sense — aligning assessment to role rather than forcing uniformity. This could encourage more companies to get qualified without the barrier of requiring their management to pass a technical field-level exam.
My recommendation
Given the nature of the industry (kitchen exhaust cleaning is high-risk, regulated by standards such as NFPA 96) I lean toward saying: yes, the Company Rep should at least pass a certification equivalent to the Crew Leader’s test — OR there should be a modified version of the test that covers all the core knowledge (standards, safety, liability, documentation) but possibly tailored to the Rep’s role.
In practical terms for your company ProPowerWash in Phoenix:
- If you (as owner) or your designated Rep will be signing off on certification, handling inspections, ensuring systems comply, it makes sense you understand all the technical risks and cleaning criteria.
- Either take the full Crew Leader exam or a specialized oversight exam (if one exists) so your internal processes reflect credibility and professionalism.
- From a marketing/insurance/inspector perspective, having your company Rep certified as fully as the field techs strengthens your position.