Cody Post #2

J

JFife

Member
The post regarding business closures started by CleanCounty was headed in the direction of the Cody Post, so I decided to start a new thread because I also have some things I'd like to add that discussion.

Brief History:

For those who don't know what i mean by The Cody Post, it was a post started by Cody regarding the BBS system and the way it is making it easy for newbies to get started. Proponents of change felt it was shortening the learning curve, thus reducing the number of businesses that fail and in return was hurting the established professional contractor. Those in favor of the BBS systems felt that "helping others comes around" and that it was doing a service to the profession to have more companies out there bidding properly and doing good work, thus improving the perception of this industry.

NOTE: If you are unable to act civilized if someone dares to have a different viewpoint than you, please do not post. There is no reason we cannot have a discussion of a topic that happens to be sensitive. Let's get some viewpoints and suggestions without everyone getting their panties in a wad and allowing their feelings to be hurt because someone disagrees with you.

What I'd like to know and discuss is this: I think this information free-flow is going to hurt business, especially down the road. What are you going to do about it though?? If you think all the info is BAD for business, what do you suggest?? Closing all BBS's??

Have you ever noticed that the guys with the bigger companies are also usually selling something?? On another board, a large company was making the usual posts (call me, email me, etc) to help newbies until the Admin. told them they could not do that. They company basically quit posting. They were there and willing to help, as long as their was a potential for them to also make some $. Really, I cannot think of any guys with big companies that are coming on here and volunteering free info that don't also sell items. To me, this is an, "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" argument. The internet info is not going anywhere, so if you are afraid it is going to hurt your business, you better find a way to start making it work for you and grab a piece of the pie.

Jon Fife
 
Hi Jon,
First of all, I wish you nothing but success in what ever you do. You're an asset to this industry, and have certainly been there yourself to help others as they learn.

I guess the questions I want to bring up along the lines we're talking about here are pretty basic.

If guys wanted to go into business and needed to learn about the basics, couldn't they also just go to the library? I guess where I am headed with this is that the information anyone needs is out there. They don't have to come to a board. Also, there have been newbies coming and going since before we got started. We see it every year. It's going to happen with or without the BBS's. It was happening prior to the BBS's. It just seems to me like there is alot of blame being placed on the BBS's, or the net in general, when the truth of the matter is the information was and always has been out there, perhaps in a different format. Granted pricing may not have been, but really, if you are looking for pricing in Iowa for example, would you use pricing from Miami? My point is that the markets are different, the income is different, the cost of living and the amount of disposable income is not the same. You would likely be off for a while. But then, you would be off if you had to learn by the seat of your pants too.

When we got started there wasn't alot of pricing online except for some pricing on the Delco board which we learned didn't really work in our area. That's my point. It didn't work in our area. We still had tofigure things out. So will today's newbies.

I wish anyone who wants to go into business for themselves and truly make a go of it, giving it their all, working hard, my very best.

Beth
 
Hi Jon

there are ways that people make money from the BBS that you might not even know about, without selling any products.
Do you know your local cable co. sells mailing lists with your name and address?
I dont really see any info given here thats not in a ENVRIOSPEC information packet, that is sent to you with your first order. It has info on cleaning most every start-up surface and what chem. It even tells you how to ans. your first phone call.
Ponofin,wolmans,cabots,even Thompsons all have info on how to get the best results with there products. Srtip it,brighten it, then seal it. If it get's fuzzies sand it. So what dose the bbs teach you about doing the work? Nothing you would'nt learn in doing one or two decks. Cept maybe someone might want to sell you a stronger stripper.[www.primeshop.com] This was the first site i ever went to before i found any bbs. That site tells more then 2 hours of search on any bbs.
Face it,most beginners start this biz. because they think its as easy as cutting grass.
By educating people about the biz. end everything it takes to get started,and all the things that we all have to do HOW MENY START-UP'S HAVE WE STOPPED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A co. like Delco started a bbs to give the phone lines a brake from ans. questions about there products. This free'ed them up to take orders not questions. Smart move.
Any time Home Depot sells products and tool's that a person can go make money with, and give no interest for 120 days. Your going to have lowballers. A new one every day.
People that are smart enuff to get this far, are smart enuff to find another way even if we were'nt here. Usally at the exspense of a customer. Which makes us all look bad. You dont even know the amount of people that wont even call you because in the past someone has screwed them.
Zippo has said "pay your dues" "apprentice for a year first" i rather go up against a guy who thinks everything there is to make a living is in print on these bbs, then a guy that has worked for a successfull contract cleaner.
Zippo rather show you how to do it then tell you how.
I can write a book on how to ride a motorcycle but it wont mean a damn thing untill you have ridden.
They sell 1,000's of gals. of car wash everyday and i still see a line at the car wash. Hell they have places that you have to wash your own car and just sell you soapy water. Must be the same people that wash there own decks also.
 
Think about this for a moment before replying Zippo's of the world, Cody's too, just how many more "newbie's" are out there that never come to any board and never get any help from any of us?

Now one more thing then you can reply, are they any different then the few who want to better themselves and the industry so they come to the board to learn the proper way to do something.

EDUCATE
EDUCATION

That is one way to lean the basics, hands on is how you learn the in and out of it.

The ones who go out there and screw up make all of us look bad, is that what you want to happen thinking it will improve your business?

I don't give away the things that can hurt me, account names and prices I charge. I don't get a penny from any company that I mention if I find their product works better then another.

I do try to bring up a few very important things (to me any way) Insurance, licenses, water laws (reclaim) proper way to handle chemicals as I know it, others know much more on that subject but with their help I learned too.

What does bother me is how a few think they are so much above the rest of us that they can try to dictate to us what we should or should not offer others.

Someone taught you things, someone helped you at one time and that is what we are doing to the newbie, offering SOME help, NOT ALL but some of the basics.

IF you feel your so much better then the rest of us SHOW US the proof.

Jon
 
Beth,

Thank you for your regards. You mentioned that you can find the basics anywhere. And I for one do not mind someone teaching a newbie how to remove a QC. I think this forum is great for that type of help. But we are also passing info to any taker regarding: how to bid, giving away exact info on how we sell jobs, proper adv. media, etc. THAT is where i feel the problem is at. Honestly, I could teach a motivated learner how to clean concrete in about two minutes. Granted, it might not be the top-of-the-line job, but it would be close. The actual skill of pressure washing is far from rocket science. What IS tough and takes significant skill is the ability to market, run a business, stay legal, etc.

Ron,

as far as Delco goes, I am sure that was a good reason to start their board, but those guys also had enough foresight to realize that the 'net was the wave of the future and they better get on board.


My feeling is that you will have to deal with newbies no matter what. You are always going to have guys undercutting you. I just don't know why we have to help them and reduce the chance of their failure. Leave that to the people that have something to gain from it, distributors for instance. If they want a reduced chance of failure, i think they should buy a franchise. My gut tells me that we are hurting a lot of people by over-informing the newbies.

As far as teaching the newbies goes, the argument is that through proper education they won't underbid jobs. PLEASE!!! We are attempting to teach a lesson that the owners of McDonald's, KMart, etc. don't even get!! What is the first thing a new McD's does when it comes to town?? Has a great big, cheap sale!! Last year KMart's here started selling gas, and they were charging 20 cents less than competitors!! These companies know that people will go with a cheap price, and then all they have to do is do a decent job (which they've learned to do through the boards). (and yes, i realize kmart is bankrupt, the point is still there)

It is going to happen within the next 10 yrs., this market will become flooded. The 60-100 dollar-an-hour days will be a thing of the past. The price will be $30-45, just like painting. You won't make a lot of money unless you are very large or have marginal expenses. At this point, I really don't see how that CANNOT happen.

Jon
 
jon f.

i thank your wrong about the $60 to $100 per hr days. because the same thing happen every year and after 3,6,9 months a year there off to make the big bucks else were. or they go get a real job.

winter time dose most neebies in!



mel
 
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Hmmmm....
Jon, I don't recall exactly when it was said that teaching them would ensure everyones prices would be the same or one guy wouldn't undercut the other, or is that paraphrasing? I believe you will always have lowballers, and companies that charge a premium. Both have a place in the market. One is leading with price and the other with quality or a perception thereof.

I have talked to guys on the phone in Virginia, maybe 3 hours from me and thier prices are vastly different than ours are here. I have talked to guys here in our county and seen them lower and higher than we are. I think it's impossible to pick each and every piece of fruit from a tree... so to speak. Where we are it's very compeditive but there are also tons of homes, so it balances out. But we have lots of lowballers here. We also have a fair number of high priced companies here.

Jon, I do see your points. But I am not sure that the people who will be dropping in and out of business over the next few years will be any different than before. What I think we need to ask is, do we see a rise, nationwide, in quality companies that will make it long term? They'll be the ones you have to worry about. They're the ones that will know how to capture market share.

Beth
 
Jon Fife I think you will find out just how things really are when you move and restart your business part time while going to school.

A different state, a different type of clientel.

How about doing this, once your moved and ready to start up again keep a comparrions record, then after a couple month post it here and tell us your experiences about how your treated nd what the competiton is like, prices and all.

Like Beth said even 3 hours drive changes things, I know I could never charge what the guys that have to make a years living in 5 month charge nor would customers here in So. CA. pay that kind of money.

The other Jon F.
 
Not trying to be a smart-butt Jon, but what would you be expecting me to find out?? I am not quite sure what your point is. Again, not being smart, just kinda lost me with that one.

Not planning to work pressure washing when i move, I am just keeping some stuff to keep working here until Jan. Figure I can use it later on, might as well keep it.

Again, please do not make this about me, make it about the points being discussed. I have no motive for any of the things i am saying except for concern for the industry. This is not sour grapes on my part, I have no ax to grind. Simply trying to figure out if this is the best thing that we can be doing for our industry.

jon
 
I think Jon (OP) was making a point about pricing varying even a few hours away, if I read him right... in other words, we may read about pricing, but its all theory and may vary from state to state and county to county? I've eve talked to guys that have different prices based on the neighborhood and car, and how difficult the customer seems from talking to them. Heck, people on these very boards refer to them as the ones you bid high and hope you don't get. The only thing consistant about the prices in the industry is they are not consitant....well, except gutters around here, which are too cheap in my opinion. Waaaaaay too cheap.

Beth
 
Jon I was not and am not making it about you, I know my mind thinks one thing and my fingers end up saying it a different way.

What I was saying/asking is to compare the pressure washing business there to what it is like where you are.

I was under the impression you were going to work it weekends as a sort of imcome while going to school so was asking to do that comparrison.

Sorry you took it the wrong way as many do when I reply to post.

I never have a problem with you and I belive you know that so to clear things up here it is not about you.

I clearly understand this whole Cody thing about teaching and sharing what we know with others.

To make it short and sweet what he is saying and I believe you too is why share the apple pie with someone you don't know.

Or to say it another way why give someone some of your money knowing he or she probably will take more of it from you too.

Am I right on here now or am I still off track?

The loud Jon F.!
 
Jon Fife,
I hear what your saying and I can't say that I disagree with it at all.

I guess it comes down to what type of person one really is. Are they the type of person such as Beth, that will bend over backwards to help people out. Or are they the type of person Like Cody, that feels that we are helping out to much and in essence we are really hurting ourselves in the long run.

Those are two ends of the spectrum and it comes down to where does one fall into that spectrum.

I for one lean heavily towards Beth. I Don't mind helping out most anyone because I have alot of Confidence in my work and abilities that I don't feel threatened by Newbies or old timers.

I look at it like the law of averages. Some jobs you lose because you were lowballed and other jobs you gain because some lowballer screwed it up in the first place.

Just because someone has alot of Knowledge it doesn't mean that they will do a good job. Yes it helps alot but it still doesn't do the work for you.

I would venture to say that most, and by along shot, Powerwashing Contractors don't even visit these boards anyway.
They do there work all day so why bother reading about it all nite and not get paid in doing so.

Us members here are just a very small piece in the very large pie. We might be the buffs of this field were most others just do a good job and don't eat, sleep. & dream about powerwashing.

I can't even think of one company that I know of that beat me on a bid and they come to these bb's in the first place.

And even if they did..hey Kudo's to them in beating me. I'll just try harder the next time.

To make this point even clearer look at it like this. We all go to baseball camp but only a couple of us will make it in the end even though we were all given the same learning info at the camp.
Why??Well for 2 reasons and 2 reasons only which are :
#1 Natural God given Talent and #2 ,which is probably more important then the first one, We try as hard as possible to succeed and failure is not in our Vocabulary.

Also most people don't give up all the secrets that they have anyway. I don't. Alot yes..but not all.
 
Hey folks, I'm going to jump in with both feet again! I sure hope the alligators leave some for the sharks.

Opening or keeping a door open with low-balling is business 101.
It's been around for a very long time and it will never go away
(because it works):
- Upon starting a new business, offer reduced prices to get people in the door so they can see your products and/or services.
Once they see the quality you offer, they will stay when the prices change.
Example: Great Clips when they first open a new site, they offer low prices to get customers in their door. In 6 months they take the price from $5.99 a hair cut to $12 a cut. They can't make a living long term at the low rate but once the customers are there....
- When I worked in engineering, we always bid the first job close to cost to get our foot in the door with a new customer. (We never would have gotten in any other way. I can't think of too many in business that will say: I'm going to try business B because they are the same price as business A). Once we were there and the customer saw the quality of our services, they gave us work even when we were the highest bidder (that didn't always happen).
- When business was slow in my consulting business, we did jobs at cost, so I could retain my talented workers.
- Companies always offer coupons (buy one get one free).
- Ever hear the expression "Door-Buster"?
- I sold electronics for a large national company - we'd sell a stereo system for $1000 bucks, our competition sold it for $900 and threw in a $200 stereo stand. The customer returned ours.

These are just a few examples. I could list 3-4 dozen and more.

The big difference is the quality of the work that you do once you're there and the relationship you develop has to be based on meeting customers needs (price, quality, speed, trust, reliability, etc.).

Food for thought:
If the quality is not the highest, but the customer is OK with it, maybe you were trying to sell a Cadillac to someone wanting an Escort.

Change gears a bit:
This is not meant as an insult to anyone on this board, but you're not going to teach anyone how to become a successful business owner on this or any other BB. Especially in a few weeks or months. The information traded here may be important, but it's only a very small part of the large picture needed to become a successful business owner.

I don't believe the P/W business market will become flooded. People will not stay in the business if money can't be made.
There are too many people out there that are trying to make a fast bucks. They will be the first to leave when money gets tight or when a large problem comes their way. Long term businesses will reach into their deep bags and find methods to overcome a small obstacle again and again.

Why do we help new people when there is a chance they will hurt us or someone else with the information they get from us? It's human nature to help each other - we are all our brothers keepers. It also helps us learn. It keeps us from becoming too comfortable. Giving away what we have is a way of ensuring that we will receive more. It's very simple. It's like a barter system.
Maybe it's too philosophical, but think about dating and love: did you stop giving or caring because your first date dumped you for someone else? Did you stop caring or loving people? Do you stop going to the football game because your team lost that big game and broke your heart (and you lost that $500 bet on them)? No you keep going back and giving more because you know there are more opportunities out there.

Is there not enough market out there? I think so. I think I could knock on 10 doors every day for the next ten years and not cover all the opportunities that are out there in this business (just where I live).

My last example: In my city there are over 1000 real estate agents. Is the market oversaturated for them? Have they lowered their comission rates? NO and NO. Who is offering help to get people licensed in the real estate business? The REALTORS. - Think about that and how it relates to the P/W business!
 
Paul B. You said it all and said it well, I doubt there is anything to add to it.

John of Clean Country also said it in a different way and again I think between the two of you and what Beth said there is really nothing to add to this post.
 
Jon, You’re right, if you think that’s what low-ballers are then those are good answers. I have don’t agree about the education thing. I believe helping raise standards will help in the long run and not hurt.


Name one industry education and development hurt? No one is out there looking for our cancer cure. We have to do it ourselves. You guys that think educating people will hurt this business are buying into a persona BS that thinks he has some superior knowledge or secret and if the information falls into the wrong hands pressure washing as we know it will be destroyed.

WAKE up, smell the coffee. I’m giving you personal testimony that this virus has not affected me. In fact my immunity by sharing and listening right here has made my immune system stronger. People please listen up, education has always meant power. If you do not dig in and get involved you can still be successful. But if you really open the doors you will gain vast knowledge that these weaker people are afraid of.

In the business world there are many example of how networking has taken entire industries to the next level. I’m not going to give any comparisons because everyone will say you can’t compare that to pressure washing… Business is business. Fundamental principals have been practiced for years. All companies use them across the board.

Try this, dig in and contribute and take. Do one or the other and then tell me it hurt you? Does that sound ridiculous. Right now you’re saying Ron that’s ridiculous because anytime I’ve ever educated myself I have done better. Now do see what Cody is selling/ fear Because he doesn’t want to work harder to learn better ways and improve the industry. He is happy doing what he doing and now because people are actually trying to be more professional, making business plans and running sharper tighter ships life is becoming more difficult for the weak.

I only have about 10 people I know these BBS that are more successful now than a year ago. Don’t worry I wont mention any names. I’ll ask, does anyone feel that they have made more money because they learned something here?

THE END for now?
 
If I may, I'd like to address a point Mr. Fife made ealier about $60-$100 per hour rates disappearing.

I mentioned earlier why I thought it would not disappear but let me add to that. The EPA is continually changing requirements related to this and other business. If anything, overall prices will move higher. You can't forget inflation (some are too young to have seen the time when Money Market Funds were paying 18%+ interest, gold at $600+/oz, or mortgage above 11%). We have been in a recession for the last three years - I'm talking about global recession (Mr. Greenspan may not advertise that) which has had impacts to ALL business.
Equipment cost - which way do you think that will go. Some down, but most up is my guess. Chemical prices - will they go up or down?
Prices have to stay in perspective of affordability. If your costs go up, you have to pass it on. If you can't pass it on, you have to find ways to lower your O/H or expenses, or other.

How many here remember the standard 3 year car loan?
Look at the relationship of cost and affordability.
Did we have the option of leasing cars as a non-business 30 years ago.

I agree a bit with most of you in one or more area:
- Teaching helps improve overall business field
- If you have anything that makes you special (process or new chemicals) you may not want to share it (unless you market it).
(Sony lost their butt on Beta because they didn't wan't to license.)
- You have to stay competitive wheather you want to or not (as long as you want to stay in business). Processes change, equipment changes, chemicals change, materials change. Look at new asphalt shingles - some are adding mold and mildew agents.
If all do this where will this take the roof washing arena? Will it be 30-40-75 years before they're out of business of cleaning asphalt shingles. Then again are more people using slate, or tile, or plastics - will there actually be a larger market.
- Only a small percentage of P/W visit these boards. What's the membership on this board 400?, 500? 500 divided by 48 states = 10+. (some states represented more than others). If I only had to compete against 9 others, in just my area that would be great.

The law of "Supply and Demand" will dictate part of all the equations.

Let me give an example:
About a year ago I had 2 rooms painted in a house in Key West, Fl. Total cost was $500. Two guys were there 5 hours total (that included patching, sanding, priming and finish coat, and clean up on walls, trim, and louvered closet doors.)
If I wouldn't have been there, I would have questioned the quality and price. Most painters would have been there all day or even 2 days. For a standard painter 2 painters for 8 hrs. that's $31.25 per hour. This worked out to $50/hr.
I hope my points in this example are clear.


Good Day and
Regards,

Paul B.
 
Ron,

YES!

I think I said it above (it's burried there).

Regards,
 
In Marietta GA. where I live there is a Jewelry store D Gellar & Sons that Is the largest single Jewelry store in the South East. They have 5million dollars inventory on hand that they own outright. They have more inventory in Rings and gems in that one store than their competitors do in 20. They of course by in huge quantities (like Wal-Mart, Kmart) they advertise on 18 different radio stations and in the newsprint. They advertise up front if you buy from us we will beat anyone’s price. If you put it on layaway with ten % down you can go out and price shop for 6 months and if you find it somewhere cheaper will beat it, if you find something different will get it and beat their price.

I used to work there guarding the door, many people never bought from them. And they haven’t put anyone out of business. Even though they are telling the truth and can save people thousands on a wedding set or the more expensive jewelry. Why would anyone shop anywhere else?

People are people and do weird things and no they don’t always go for the lowest price.

And the only way someone like Kmart or Wal-Mart and the other big chains can have ridiculous sales is that they order in such high volume that they can afford it.

No Start up lowballer will ever buy that much chemical, equipment or anything else to survive lowballing. Or to affect overall market prices. It’s not possible for the 10 % of any industry to affect overall pricing for that industry.

What makes us afraid to educate?

doctors educate each other every day, I dont see their prices going down.

How many sites tell and show you how to work on your own car?
Do you do it? or do you take it to a garage.

I dont believe anyone will say, man that guy did a crappy job on my driveway but at his prices I am going to keep him!!

will they?
 
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