Certification Protocol Kitchen Exhaust Cleaners

Phil Ackland

KEC Expert
I am posting my new Exhaust Cleaners Certification Protocol. See link at bottom.

This is a “BIG” document and requires study and thought to digest. But I think it is important for all of our futures, so take the time to read it and get back to me.

A few points to remember when reading it.
1) I intend to offer this to all levels of government that deal with Fire Safety. (Such as the State of Texas (or wherever) Fire Code requirements)

2) It is called "Phil Ackland" only at the moment to identify it during its evolution and transition from a draft to a more formal (refined) document. It is also copyrighted. Both of these are an effort to protect the integrity of the whole during the development phase.

3) What do I get out of this? -- I sell education. I hope that this protocol will encourage people to see the value of being consistency “trained and qualified”

4) The definitions of “trained and qualified” are debatable and that is one of the reasons I am posting this -- I am asking for your feedback.

5) I am not trying to hurt associations. I am trying to enhance this field for everyone. I have asked both major associations to participate in this refinement process. This Protocol will be available to ALL CLEANERS regardless of any affiliation.

6) As stated above (2) this Protocol is in an evolutionary phase. For the time being I will offer Certification (to these standards) but as time goes by and other groups (possibly associations) join in this process they too may be offering this program.

7) I am developing “distance education or on-line training” for experienced personnel to keep the costs down. But I hope there will also be training available through ISO licensed instructors (see the Protocol). This training will be available in a number of locations. I understand that for this protocol to succeed we have to be able to provide it at a reasonable cost. That is a primary consideration.

8) This Protocol is not a finished document, I am looking for help and opinions from ALL interested parties. So please provide your feedback.

9) and finally, I think all knowledgeable cleaners know that if the government creates a program of what is required to be an exhaust cleaner, they will take little interest in what cleaners really want or need. So it is my hope that by being pro-active and united we might, just might, have a chance to get something to government that will reflect some of the criteria that we (collectively) think defines a “Trained and Qualified” tradesman.


http://www.philackland.com/Certification.html
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I would add that the guy has to show you that he could actually clean a system, preferrably one with laterals and a vertical longer than 1 story. These are the areas that I see neglected the most and if an exhaust cleaner can clean these areas, he most likely could learn through experience how to clean any system. Setting this type of test up would be a logistical nightmare but if you want to certify that someone can clean exhaust systems, I would think that the practical application would be twice as telling as any test regardless of how many questions or the passing grade.
 
Practical experience

Matt
There are a number of ways that (presently) a person could show that they have experience in the Protocol. Yet it is really one of the weakest links because they all pretty much take a "leap of faith."
Costs do not allow that everyone be inspected and watched to prove they can do any particular type of system.

However, it was my thinking that if 1) you sign that you know how to do the work properly 2) you take the training that will be required (which might fill in any "gaps." 3) You accept "certification."
Then 4) you are screwed if you have lied. Because the insurance companies and AHJ's will eat you for breakfast if they find a site you have done but not reported problems.

I want to note that I am trying to train the AHJ even more vigorously than cleaners. Most cleaners know what they are "supposed" to be doing, but either choose not to ($); or can't, and are afraid to tell that they didn't (couldn't) do a spot. The AHJ's on the other hand, generally haven't got a clue about these systems; how they are supposed to be installed or be maintained. They are the ones where my greatest energy is going to be directed.
 
Matt mentioned long horizontal runs. Rarely, unless they have been cleaned and maintained from day one and have good access, which happens let's sayyyyyyy NEVER, will you be able to clean it to standards by pressure washing alone. This often requires entering the duct which could bring into to play confined space issues, which can take the price through the roof. For that reason I try to stay away from these places.
Don't we also have to get the people who build and design these places? There are simply some places and situations where placing a grease exhaust should be out of the question. I can show you a McDonalds in the Federal Plaza in DC, where the duct after snaking it's way through a jewelry store next door (like I'm getting in there after hours) goes up 10 floors and through a room where armed guards, (with rifle's) stand and watch every move you make. While you make a futile attempt at cleaning a duct with inadequate access with bookshelves and, desks that appear to have cost thousands of dollars in your way. Only to have the store owner complain that you charge too much and get's someone to do it for $250 who obviously is not cleaning much.
This situation needs to me stopped in the planning stages. If they can't meet simple guidelines while installing the systems then don't let them build them. Ok Ok I know I'm asking too much
 
You are absolutely right about the AHJ's. They are really the only thing that matters when it comes to certification. If the AHJ's in your area are not concerned with kitchen exhaust systems, it doesn't matter what kind of certification you have. I think that is why certification and exhaust cleaning schools are such a touchy subject around here. Most of us know that the people who really matter are our customers and we serve their needs. If you could find a way to make certification mandatory, similar to what the fire suppression guys have to go through, then the AHJ's would really start to matter. Until then, it really doesn't matter if you are certified or not, it is not going to affect your business one way or the other.

I can understand how having every guy demonstrate cleaning a system would get cumbersome. How about if you had a location that was fairly intricate, and the guy had to physically walk through the location(at night) and explain to you how he would clean each part of the system. Not that this would prove that he could actually do it, but it would at least prove that he had the knowledge.

The final exam at the Bryan Exhaust Kitchen Exhaust Cleaning School is to clean this duct to bare metal:D
 
Last edited:
Bryan, that looks like an alimentary canal, not a duct. That duct would require the services of Guido and the boys. They would use a a fryer w/o a high limit switch, filled with gasoline.

Many customers will not care about quality work until the AHJ (including the insranace underwriter) cares about quality work. I do agree w/Phil Ackland that education of the AHJ is the key to enforcement. This week I met w/ 2 City Fire Marshals who have requested service reports of our work. Not just duct cleaning, but fire sprinklers, alarms, and suppressions sytems. I discussed concerns with each of them about some installations I have seen. Neither were concerned about installation at all, . I have 2 fire suppressions systems that are waiting for an inspection, I was told there was no time. If I can make time to make a 200 mile roujnd trip, the inspector can go less htan a 1/2 mile. The building inspectors have even less concern about problems with the origonal installation.

I would like to see some kind of certification, based upon a written test and a physical test. But even if a test was passed, how do you verify compliance with a standard? Follow-up inspections of completed work take time and money that most government agenfcies do not have. Even if time and money are available, the inspectors don't know and don't care. The quality of work performed still falls back on the individuals ethics and morals.

I really wish Mr Ackland sucsess in his endevours, but will not hold my breath.

Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc
 
The customer, the customer, the customer
How many of your customers at this point could care less if you are certified or not. The purpose of certification is to ensure the work is done to standards that make the systems safe to operate.
Until the customers care about certification, they will for the most part always look for someone cheaper, which usually involves newbie's and the cycle of poor quality starts over again. Let's face it, how many of you turn down or price yourself out of the picture, on purpose, jobs that are very difficult or have intricate time consuming systems? If I foresee the need for an extra crew or a second night my price usually is not acceptable to most people. Where do these jobs go? To the new guy on the block. The same new guy who has a full time job, and is working out of his 88-ford station wagon.
 
Last edited:
One of the jobs I looked at on Wednesday was a resturant. (Owned by Elvis no less!) in a building owned by the city. This is my second call to look at this facility. This resturant has been in place at least 35 years. the hood is a canopy style, with a horizontal duct about 30 feet long that exhaust on the sidewall. The duct is enclosed in a sheet rock chase, no access panels. Grease is driping out of the fan, onto the ground. the fan is not removable. I told the Elvis the need for access panels, told her I would charge over $300.00 for panels. I also told her I had been there before w/o any action on the part of the landlord, (the City).
I also told her I would contact the local fire marshall at the fire department, with my suggestions. We parted ways and on Friday I met w/the Fire Marshall. I told him of my past history with the resturant and gave him my suggestions as to the needed modifications. He told me he would relay the information to the manager of city property, but he could do nothing about the situation. Now at the same time as the city not meeting codes, I am working with several body shops to install fire suppression systems in paint booths, as mandated by the city. I have been involved in fire prevention/suppression for over 30 years. I have seen fires in resturants (impressive) but have yet to see a fire in a body shop.

Again, if Phil can get some education to the AHjs, I'll be surprised. In fact, if the city evers installs access panels in this particular resturant, I'll buy Phil dinner, cooked by Elvis. I'll even get Elvis to drive us around town in that really cool restored late 30s panel wagon.

Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc
President olf OR-FED, Oregon Fire Equipment Distributors, our goal is education of serivce techs and the AHJs
 
Maybe we should refuse service altogether to places refusing to bring their systems up to code. The problem as stated before, is some of these systems were allowed to be installed where it can cost $1000's of dollars (conservative estimate) to make them cleanable
 
Matt I agree with you completely on the point that you made about certification being more valuable if a person is actually seen cleaning an entire exhaust system to bare metal.

This a primary goal of our training program.

We feel that a person can't learn welding just by reading a book and taking a written exam. At some point he is going to actually have to weld something (or several somethings) in order to pass to be a welder.

It's the same way with a diesel mechanic. There is definitely book learning required, but when it boils down to it, a diesel mechanic actually has to fix/ repair diesel engines in order to be "trained and qualified" to repair diesel engines.

A third and final example of this logic is an electrician. It is a balance of book learning/theory and hands-on-in-the-field training to become an electrician.

I propose that any future protocol that may be adopted by the NFPA or other's would include the idea that in order to be considered "trained, qualified & certified" the person must be able to clean an entire exhaust system from start to finish to bare metal while the trainer/certifier is there in person watching the process occur.

We propose that in order to be a Certified Hood Cleaner that one must take a written exam and pass a practical exam using a power washer as their pencil to fill in their exam answers. :)
 
Rusty, Are you certified by PWNA, IKECA or Phil Ackland?
 
Rusty,

Who will certify the Trainer/Certifier? What gives them the right to certify or train. Is it, "I Train therefor, I am a trainer! I Certify therefor, I am a Certifier." That job should go to the one entity that has the respect of all parties involved, NFPA, FIRE, INSURANCE, etc. to Mr. Phil Ackland.
 
None of the above.

Phil started IKECA, PWNA so in essence all of these organizations are Phil (and there is nothing wrong with this).

We started our own organization in 2003 (CHDCA). We did just like Phil did in 1992 (IKECA) & 1995 (PWNA).

We examined closely what IKECA and PWNA would have to offer our company and came to the conclusion that for the amount of money that they require from us to become certified and remain certified would cost us thousands of dollars per person per 10 year period.

We feel that there are many kitchen exhaust cleaners who have not become certified because of the cost involved vs increased profit from being certified. We want to do something about that.

We feel that there is a more cost effective means to accomplish this goal. So we formed our own organization to represent us in our industry.

Cost are per member (IKECA vs PWNA) to remain certified (Doesn't include initial cost to become certified -books,course, test fee, travel, etc.):

10 year cost to be Certified with IKECA $6,515 + cost of 40 CEU's
PWNA $4,982-7,022 + cost of 13.3 CEU's

20 year cost to be Certified with IKECA $12,365 + cost of 80 CEU's
PWNA $6,932-11,012 + cost of 26.6 CEU's

30 year cost to be Certified with IKECA $18,215 + cost of 120 CEU's
PWNA $8,882-15,000 + cost of 40 CEU's

Each CEU cost approx. $100 per CEU

So we formed our own nationwide network of independent certified hood & duct cleaners from Canada and the USA to meet or exceed any NFPA 96 or governmental requirements to be considered "trained, qualified and certified."

We welcome what Phil has done and is doing for this industry. It can only be for the better.

I only hope that everyone that cleans kitchen exhaust systems can afford to meet these new 2004 NFPA 96 requirements as put forth by Phil and that he will take input from non-Phil associations. (since we aren't his 2 associations noted above that was asked for input).

********************************************
We don't disagree that Phil has the experience but his voice isn't the only voice out there when it comes to certification of kitchen exhaust cleaners.

Just because he was the first and is currently the loudest voice pushing this issue, it doesn't make him more right than what we are proposing.

Phil is just a person that is trying to sell education. What better way than to write the law that says that you have to go through him to obtain this certification & buy his education.

I think that Phil is a master business person who has built from thin air a system that requires that every kitchen exhaust cleaner pay him money or go out of business (with proposed codes as he has written them).

Don't you think that there should be other voices to facilitate this process?

Do you think that there should be only 1 person in the world that has the power to affect your business?
 
Last edited:
Guys it seems to me a sort of simple answer to how hoods are installed.

I am aware what I am about to say sounds simple as I said just not easy to get done.

CODE CODE CODE.

The uniform building code.

Is there not something in that code saying how hoods are to be installed? how many floors it can go, how many panal accesses it must have etc.?

That to me seems to be the missing link here.

Now I know if something was built before the code was put in place most likely would be grandfathered in so getting that owner to upgrade would not be easy.

If there is a code and if the city owned this restaurant or the property it is on then the city itself is in violation of code and should be cited, and I do believe that the fire department plays a part in inspecting and citing owners.


Jon
 
The Uniform Mechanical Code, the Uniform Building Code, the Uniform Fire Code, Title 19, the Fire Protection Handbook (18th ed.), NFPA 96, BOCA etc...not to mention the local versions...
Your absolutely right Jon it is sort of simple, in a complicated way. Each jurisdiction chooses what codes to adopt as a part of that city/counties charter and then enforces it as they choose. With budgets in the condition they are in, enforcement is difficult and I think if AHJ's were given the money and personnel they want, everything would eventually improve for all involved, but, the likelyhood of that happening is relatively slim.
As of right now, all the above codes are going through the wringer and within the year we may see a brand new code that is all of the above rolled into one and then streamlined ( a good idea, but you should see some of the preliminary stuff that has been created, it's like a step back in time, about 40 years worth). While creating stricter codes in the Eastern jurisdictions the Western codes are becoming more lax. It is hoped that the final product will be easier to enforce as well as easier to comply with.
One code for everyone, not this city this code that city that code. Also look forward to performance based codes as oposed to prescription based in the near future.
 
Yeah jon that would be simple, we could give you a million examples of things that are simply built so that they in part cannot be cleaned. They apperantly follow the put it in no matter codes. It's like telling you to clean a sidewalk, them making you do it from 40 feet away and around the corner.
 
Last edited:
Sounds like the same thing with the manufactures of pressure washers washing their hands of the EPA laws, pass the buck down the ladder.

Ok I can relate to what you guys are saying in a big way, bathrooms with no windows are suppose to be vented, or so the book says.

My home and the other new ones built in 1986 were not vented, no window, no vent, I called that to the attention of the builder and city, was told I was wrong. Yeah like I cannot read a book, so I vented them myself and not to the crawl space but to the outside.

Need to do the kitchen soon too.

----------------

All you hood cleaners start writing letters to your state and fed reps.

Jon
 
The unfortunate thing is that NFPA as a whole but 96 in particular is a great set of "standards". We use, quote and live by them, but they are standards and they are industry driven meaning that members of the industry write, amend and vote on all issues, the membership of NFPA 96 committee is 30 members with 9 alternates and one NFPA staff liason. The committee consists of Manufacturers, Users, Installer/Maintainers, Labor representitives, Research and Testing personell, Insurance reps, Consumers, special experts and Enforcing Authorities. Only TWO are Enforcing Authorities and FOUR Insurance Reps. That leaves 34 persons that can realize personal gain from the enforcement of the codes. EVERY FIRE DEPARTMENT KNOWS THIS!
 
I was doing a job once and they were having a new hood installed, the work was being done while I was there. They were installing the duct in a way that made most of it inaccessible. When I questioned it, I was told that is the way they always do it. (A 20 YEAR OLD COMPANY) THere is the start of all the problems. Who signs off on these impossible designs? Even if access is designed into a system, the sprinkler guy or the plumber, or the electrician will block those up first thing, and the ones they miss will have a 500-LB refrigerator in the way by the time I get there.
Look at McDonalds, yeah the golden arches, one on every corner McDonalds. I would bet that 95% of them have ductwork that elbows and is partially inaccessible, or at least was originally built that way. What percentage of your jobs can you say meet NFPA guidelines completely? I would say it's at about 25% for me.
 
Jon, there is a set of codes that Oregon purports to follow. It is the Uniform Fire Code, soon to be International Building Code. My copy of the UFC spells out the requirements for installation of exhaust ducts. But most of the inspectors are not very familiar w/the lesser known codes. I have worked with some good inspectors, defined as the ones who will ask questions and more importantly, will listen to my questions. I have 3 McDonalds that we do on a regular basis. They range from 25 years old to 1 year old. All three have the infamous bent duct over the 3 vat fry station. All are impossible to clean properly. Now over 25 years, don't you think the designers would realize the problem? I have never been asked bu an inspector if a duct was accessable for cleaning. I have been told that the inaccessable areas were someone elses responsiblity. I do work with a local sheet metal company that installs exhaust systems. Whenever thay have a hood job, I get called for advice. Without fail, each and every job they do is accessable for service. Guess who I reccommend for hood work?

A problem the inspectors have is if they do there job in strict accordance with codes, they are apt to piss people off. They then get called on the carpet for being overzeolous. Recently the city attorny gave permission to install a separation wall in a remoldel. The wall did not meet code. Now the inspector is the bad guy because the wall will need to be removed and replaced to meet code.

The NFPA is the only model code company I know of that will allow anyone to pay the membership fee, join, make proposals at to code, and vote on the issues. The IBC is run by building officials, no one else is allowed. That seems one sided to me. As a contractor I work on ducts and fire systems on a daily basis. I know what is a good design and a servicable design. the IBC will not allow me any input as to the codes.


Douglas Hicks
General Fire Equipment Co of Eastern Oregon, Inc
 
Back
Top