BUTYL & SODIUM HYPOCHLORITE

D

desi

New member
Do any of you mix bleach(sh) and a butyl based detergent for house cleaning?

I was told by someone yesterday this is a no no . What he was trying ot sell was a non-butyl soap that can be mixed with sh. If I understand correctly , butyl is a water based solvent.

Also, when you guys use buckets to mix chems, do you rinse well then later on use same bucket to mix another type of chemical ( eg , soap & bleach , later in day at a differnet job use same bucket (after rinsing out for sodium hydroxide? )


Is this procedure asking for trouble?
 
WOW :eek:

Don thanks for posting that link, Ive used the same bucket with out washing it out but I will make sure that I wash it out from now on,
is there any more tips about what not to mix together?.
 
Hi Robert,
Go to a search engine and type in 'caustics and acids' and you'll find all the reading you care to.
Be Safe!
 
I got a 55 gallon drum out in my backyard .. It has been there for about 3 years.. I don't know whats in it but when its hot outside it smokes.. It has a corrosive sign on the side of it. I think its degreaser .. The other day I stuck a plastic pump down in it to siphon some out to take and have it anilized. I left my pump in it and it melted the plastic tube on my pump.. We will know in about a week what this is... Here is the thing it smells like pee. I also thought about shooting it with my 44 Mag to see if it blows up but that is probably not a good idea.

Anyways the only chemical i use that I siphon is soap.. All my caustic , and bleach go into pump up sprayers
 
Do not mix butyl based products with sodium hypochlorite (bleach) or other oxidizers. Bleach is an oxidizer and butyl is a solvent. Mixing solvents with oxidizers has to potential to generate heat and possible polymerization.

2-Butoxyethanol (Butyl Cellusolve), Butyl Acetate (Ethylene glycol, Glycol ether EB), d-limonene (citric acid) are the most common. All are solvents and most are flammable, combustible and toxic. Solvents are chemicals that break down other chemcials which make them good for degreasers, paint thinners, inks, etc.

Sodium hypochlorite, sodium hydroxide, sodium percarbonate, etc are oxidizers. Oxidizers change compounds from one thing to another, not dissolve it all together. Bleach doesn't dissolve mildew, it rearranges its molecules essentially killing it.

So when you mix butyl and bleach and apply it to a substrate, you then have one chemical (butyl) trying to dissolve the dirt and everything else it comes into contact with including the other chemcial while the bleach is trying to do the opposite, you set up the poosibility for a chemical reaction. It's not likely anything will happen other than maybe generate some heat and eventually may gel making it unusable, except with acetate which could combust.

Mixing sodium hydroxide and sodium hypochlorite is OK because they are both oxidizers and both alkalines which means they are both trying to achieve the same result.

John B. If the chemical in the drum you have dissolved the siphon, it is probably a solvent of some type.
 
Great Great Information LES.......Thanks
 
John B

I agree it may not be a good idea to shoot it with your 44, but now with a SKS where we could get back and under cover. Now thats a different story.

So what was in the drum?
 
Les Howington said:
Do not mix butyl based products with sodium hypochlorite (bleach) or other oxidizers. Bleach is an oxidizer and butyl is a solvent. Mixing solvents with oxidizers has to potential to generate heat and possible polymerization.

2-Butoxyethanol (Butyl Cellusolve), Butyl Acetate (Ethylene glycol, Glycol ether EB), d-limonene (citric acid) are the most common. All are solvents and most are flammable, combustible and toxic. Solvents are chemicals that break down other chemcials which make them good for degreasers, paint thinners, inks, etc.

Sodium hypochlorite, sodium hydroxide, sodium percarbonate, etc are oxidizers. Oxidizers change compounds from one thing to another, not dissolve it all together. Bleach doesn't dissolve mildew, it rearranges its molecules essentially killing it.

So when you mix butyl and bleach and apply it to a substrate, you then have one chemical (butyl) trying to dissolve the dirt and everything else it comes into contact with including the other chemcial while the bleach is trying to do the opposite, you set up the poosibility for a chemical reaction. It's not likely anything will happen other than maybe generate some heat and eventually may gel making it unusable, except with acetate which could combust.

Mixing sodium hydroxide and sodium hypochlorite is OK because they are both oxidizers and both alkalines which means they are both trying to achieve the same result.

John B. If the chemical in the drum you have dissolved the siphon, it is probably a solvent of some type.
Click to expand...


Great info. Les i was just wondering if you could clear somthing up if Sodium hypochlorite, sodium hydroxide, sodium percarbonate, sodium metasilicate, etc. are all oxidizers and are trying to achieve different outcomes to the solvents you mentioned then why do so many soaps combine butyl, hydroxide metasilicate and d-limonene products i'm a bit confused.
 
There are soaps that contain sodium metasilicate penta and glycol ether EB and soaps that contain sodium hydroxide and butoxyethanol and so on. The difference is that these chemical manufacturers are not dumping an unmeasured amount of one product in with another and just mixing them together. Example : 1 gallon of butyl degreaser in a bucket with 3 gallons of clorox and adding one gallon of water. That mixture is not ok. There are more appropriate chemicals to add to the bleach. Sodium hydroxide is one. I think that was the original question and I probably answered it as to "never" add solvents and oxidizers together or maybe that's the way my answer was taken. I sort of hope it was taken that way because if you don't know what you are doing you should "never" mix two different chemicals together.

In certain amounts, solvents are combined with certain oxidizers to cause a desired chemical reaction. These formulas are tested , retested and proven. A bucket of this and a bucket of that will not get the "desired" chemical reaction or maybe it will. Sodium hydroxide is not compatible with water. It generates heat when combined but we do it everyday. If it is not done properly, you WILL get an undesired result. Sodium hydroxide reacts violently with aluminum but in the correct application it makes a great aluminum cleaner because of this reaction. Put it on too strong and you get an undesired result. Everyday we use things in places they don't belong to get desired results.

We used to mix 1000 gallon mixes of different starches and liquids. Everything was weighed and from a formula an amount was calculated so you could add less than a few ounces of another chemical, seal it off, heat it up and when it was done, a controled explosion had turned a slurry of liquid into a powdered product. Without those few ounces of that one chemical, the reaction wouldn't occur. Too much one way or not enough the other meant whether or not you got liquid or powder at the end of the process or blew yourself up trying. Not everything is a little of this and that.

So to answer you question, the reason you see certain products in soaps that are known to work against each other is because in the correct amounts they can sometimes work with each other to produce a desired product.
 
Excellent post Les.
I have not thought about things that way and definately gives me something to think about. We always need to be safe because one little incident is all it takes to lose your eyesight permanently or worse you could cause yourself and others to be at risk. Thanks again.
 
<Off topic Warning>

Les, we're hosting a Round Table in late September and would love for you to come up. Your grasp of chemicals is impressive and we would greatly appreciate your input at this get-together! Please give me a call if you're interested!

Celeste
 
thanks for taking the time les great explanation with guys like you helping the learning curve is not nearly as long as it would be thanks again.
 
what about the housewash mixes that are sold that contain butyl? Does this mean they are incompatible with bleach?
 
Fullsteam, unless it says on the MSDS that it is compatible with bleach, I would'nt use it with bleach. I doubt anything major would come of it if you were to mix them, but sodium hydroxide based detergents are better suited to be used with bleach. Butyl based cleaners are great for gutters and removing stains.


Celeste, thanks for the invite, but got too much going on right now. I just had to cancel a vacation this past week because of work. That sucked!
 
Les Howington said:
Celeste, thanks for the invite, but got too much going on right now. I just had to cancel a vacation this past week because of work. That sucked!
Click to expand...

Well, if you manage to break free, it's going to be on the 24th - starting between 10:00 and 11:00 am - We've got multiple vendors either coming in person or sending stuff - some add-on work possibilities - and lots of hands on equipment & chem demos.....straight up 85 for you less than 1.5 hours :)

Celeste
 
Hey Johny B. Hood,

Has it been a week yet?, John in an earlier post you were going to have some chemical analyized and you've never posted the results. what was that stuff or did the chemist die from exposure. Sure sounded nasty.

Go, Go, Johnny B. Hood,
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top